Erik Schelzig on Tennessee's Political History
Erik Schelzig brings decades of experience covering Tennessee politics, uncovering scandals, and showing how state decisions shape everyday life.
About Erik Schelzig
Erik Schelzig is the editor of The Tennessee Journal, a publication he has led since 2018. Before that, he spent over a decade as the Associated Press’s statehouse correspondent in Nashville, covering Tennessee’s political transformation from Democratic to Republican control. He began his journalism career with the Center for Public Integrity and has reported across the globe, including a year in Germany, filing stories for The Washington Post and Der Spiegel after 9/11. He is co-author of Welcome to Capitol Hill: Fifty Years of Scandal in Tennessee Politics, reflecting his belief that the first draft of history—especially in state politics—shouldn’t be the last.
About The Tennessee Journal
The Tennessee Journal is a subscription-based, insider-focused publication that covers Tennessee politics, legislation, and state policy in depth. Under Erik Schelzig’s leadership, it tracks the governor’s office, state legislature, and statewide agencies while highlighting major political scandals, corruption, and systemic patterns in government. The Journal provides historical context, connecting past events—like the Ray Blanton clemency scandal, Operation Rocky Top, and the Butcher banking collapse—to today’s political landscape. In an era of shrinking statehouse coverage, it offers essential reporting on how local and statewide decisions impact the daily lives of Tennesseans.
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Spencer: Erik Schelzig. Welcome to Signature Required. Thanks for having me. You are the editor for the Tennessee Journal, uh, and you're the author of a book that I have read cover to cover. I devoured it. It is Welcome to Capitol Hill, 50 years of Scandal in Tennessee Politics, and I cannot wait to hear some of the stories that I read about in that book.
Spencer: I want to hear [00:01:00] you be able to tell them, not only just so I can hear them, but so our audience can, uh, devour it in the same way that I did. Why don't, before we go into it, you talk for a minute about your background. Talk a little bit about being a reporter in politics in Tennessee. Uh, who is Erik Chelsea?
Erik: Good question. Um, let's see. I've covered the Tennessee State House now for 20 years, which is a frightening, uh, number to, to put on it. It's, uh, I moved here in 2005, right in the aftermath of one of the scandals you write about in the book, and, uh, covered the, the fallout from that. Uh, before that I, I worked for the Associated Press in West Virginia and in Florida, and, um.
Erik: You know, it started my career covering sports. So, uh, moving to politics seemed like a natural, uh, progression.
Spencer: Which sports were your favorite to cover?
Erik: You know, it's a little bit ironic because I always enjoyed sports. I was a huge baseball fan growing up. And then when I got moved to Miami, my wife got a job down there.[00:02:00]
Erik: Um, I just ended up surprisingly getting a job covering, uh, the, the, the Florida Marlins, the baseball team, and I thought it'd be great. Uh, and in the end it was a little bit disillusioning because, you know, these, you think about these players as being, you know, all for the team and all this stuff, and in reality they're, they're all professionals doing a job and, and have, you know, more immediate concerns for themselves.
Erik: And it kind of like took the lid off the, the romance of the game for me a little bit. So, um, I don't recommend covering things you love.
Spencer: I think a lot of people feel that way about professional football too. It's like you just lose something in between college football where it's so much hard. Into the pros.
Spencer: But even that now with NIL money is changing dramatically. So yeah, I mean, I
Erik: think there's a level of professionalism that goes in, even for the quote unquote amateurs. Uh, and they have to be, 'cause it's a, it's a full-time job.
Spencer: So when was the moment that you transitioned from sports to politics? How did you choose it and who gave you that opportunity?
Erik: I, I'd covered a little bit of, of politics in, in Florida, sort of when the governor came to town. So [00:03:00] covering Jeb Bush at the time. And, uh, and, and when I was, I'd, I'd been working as a, uh, disability relief. Person at the ap. And when that job ended, the time ended, they said they'd help me find a job elsewhere in the country with the company full time, which was great.
Erik: And then the first, uh, place that opened up was Anchorage, Alaska. Uh, and, uh, I was all about it. I thought it'd be great fun to move there. And my wife said, there's no way we moving from Miami all the way to Alaska, just too much of a switch. And uh, so we had to sort of turn that one down and we ended up in, in Charleston and West Virginia instead.
Erik: Um, I'm. DC is sort of my home area and my wife's from Michigan, and so it was sort of a nice sort of in between place geographically.
Spencer: I like the compromise that,
Erik: yeah.
Carli: Not Alaska.
Spencer: Yeah, yeah. The in between, between Alaska and Miami turned out to still be decidedly on the east coast.
Erik: Well, yeah, and also, you know, it was, it was sort of in, in our wheelhouse of geographically, but it wasn't sort of, from our experience, we had both lived in big [00:04:00] cities and living in West Virginia was a, a totally different ball game for us, a very much smaller place.
Erik: I was hired to cover outdoor sports and tourism, and then there was, uh, hiring, uh, uh, upheaval and they needed someone to cover the state house, so, and, and the coal industry. So suddenly I switched it completely to covering those two things, uh, and it was a big shift. Yeah.
Carli: What was that learning curve like literally going from baseball to coal mining?
Carli: I'd imagine do reporters like Google things that they don't know or you just kind of expected to know everything about everything? How did that work?
Erik: My boss at the time said, I need you to write a feature on advances in coal mining. And of course, I didn't know what the past practices of coal mining were.
Erik: So it was, and I think this was by design, that he was trying to force me to get a crash course into this. Uh, and it was definitely a, a, a deep dive and a new, new experience and actually going into a coal mine and taking an elevator, 800 feet be beneath the ground and riding around in these coal cars, it was, it was really amazing.
Erik: Uh, a little bit scary. Certainly 1 0 1. Wanted to do that for a [00:05:00] job. Um. I, I, you know, what really caught my fancy was covering, covering, uh, politics in the State House because it resembled so much covering sports to me. Uh, there's a big vote and then you talk to the winners and the losers and, and you put it all together and you have a game story, which is the, the developments that happened on that day, and then bigger picture items and talking to other people in the, in the, uh, quote unquote game, uh, in West Virginia, it was particularly interesting because, you know, we'd go to the bar at night and the governor would walk in.
Erik: At the time it was Joe Manchin in his first term as governor of, of West Virginia, and you'd have a beer with the governor and, and it was very informal and, and sort of friendly and, and, fun.
Spencer: It's interesting being a reporter for decades, you've kind of spent your entire career during a time where the bombs are falling in the trenches around everything.
Spencer: Media, I mean, print media has died. And has been [00:06:00] dying over the entire time. I imagine from a job security standpoint, like you probably haven't spent a lot of time feeling like you know, what the next year holds. I mean, what has that been like to go through an industry, which I can't point to a single year, where it's just been like, huh, things are normal.
Spencer: Transition is not around me 24 7.
Erik: It's true. It's, uh, it's, it's sort of, I, I caught in at the, at the tail end of the golden age and probably, which coincides with the advent of the internet, you know, uh, it was, I, when I was in graduate school, I got a job at the Washington Post as a, as a, what they called the a, a news aid at, and it used to be called a Copy Boy, um, answering phones and chasing down foreign correspondence, doing various, you know, wrote things.
Erik: Uh, but it was at the time, this was in the, in the mid nineties, and it was during the Big Monica Lewinsky scandal when it was starting to brew. And I'd get off work at [00:07:00] nine or 11:00 PM and walk out the door. And there'd be people waiting outside for the print edition to be put into the boxes so they could go get the box, uh, they could get the new newspaper and find out what the news was.
Erik: Back then, they weren't putting things on the internet right away. Mm-hmm. And over the course of the next, you know, 10, 15, 20 plus years, you know, news has become much more real time and the print version has become far less relevant. And as a consequence, newspapers have really faded from the sort of prime position they used to have.
Erik: Uh, I started with wire service at a similar kind of, you know, as the end of the high point for the wire service because the main. Customers for the AP were newspapers. And as the newspapers lost influence, they also stopped paying as much the AP to to cover the staff and the, and the, and the coverage that they wanted, which at the time was heavily influenced toward the states that they covered in the state houses.
Erik: And they really wanted, and all the news surveys of newspapers, the number one thing they wanted was State House coverage. And that was great for me as a State House reporter, but you could also then tell as they [00:08:00] were starting to fade away and drop their subscriptions and stop paying as much, you know, they didn't care about State House news as much, and State House coverage really started fading.
Carli: Hmm.
Erik: So on that happy note.
Carli: Yeah. So what took you from West Virginia? You're doing coal, you're doing the state house there. How did you end up here?
Erik: Well, the, the game in, in journalism, and you see this a lot more in in TV journalism as you always wanna move up into bigger markets. And so I'd, I'd done my time.
Erik: I, I spent two years in, in West Virginia and I really loved it. My wife didn't like it as much. Uh, so we were sort of looking around for what else there was. And you always wanna move up to a bigger state. And in this case, an opening, uh, occurred in, in Nashville. And, uh, a colleague of mine messaged me and said, Hey, there's a job here.
Erik: What do you think? It's like, well, I don't think anything really. I, I know it's a bigger state. West Virginia is about 1.8 million people, and Tennessee at the time was 6 million. So this was a, an a, you know, increase a step up. And, uh, so I just sort of applied on a whim, and next thing you know, I was in the, one [00:09:00] of the finalists and I got the job and they said, we really want you to start next week.
Erik: You know, so it was really, really quick. We thought we'd be here for about two years or same, you know, and move on to the next bigger state. And, uh, it, you know, as it happened, we put down roots. We really liked it, and the city was growing, and so instead of having to move up to a bigger state, we kind of grew with, with the state and, uh, have been pretty happy ever since.
Carli: Mm-hmm. So you put down roots, but what you really stayed for was the scandal, right? Like our news is way juicier than everyone else's. That's why you stayed.
Erik: I, I wish I could say that. I, I, you know, I, obviously, these are the scandals I know the most about and the state I know most about. But I think every state has their share.
Erik: Uh, the facts are slightly different, but public officials do tend to get in trouble, uh, no matter where they're from. Do
Carli: they really? I didn't know it. It's good job security, right? That's right. That's right. Print is down. Scandal keeps you secure in your position. That's right.
Spencer: Yeah. So I want to get you telling some stories, but maybe just before we go to the stories, talk to me about [00:10:00] why you decided to write the book mm-hmm.
Spencer: And what that adventure was like. Because obviously some of it, a lot of it, uh, you know, you weren't there for all of it, but researching it and going through it, just talk to me about why you decided 50 years of scandal. Uh, and then I want you to tell some stories.
Erik: Well, so first of all, it's not just me, it's, it's also my colleague, uh, Joel Liebert, who was the State House reporter for the Tennessean at the time.
Erik: Um, he had done some podcasts and other things on, uh, some of the older scandals that had happened here. And, you know, ended up speaking to me and others in, you know, in, in the, at the State House, at the Capitol Hill Press Corps and some of the, the figures involved in these scandals and found that it was kind of harder and harder to find, uh, you know, people who had any memories of these things.
Erik: Yeah. People were either aging out, retiring or passing away and see, you know, we were just talking about it and I don't know if he said it or I said it, but somebody said, somebody ought to write a book. Uh, and then we agreed like, yeah, someone should. And then that turned into [00:11:00] we should do it. Uh, and during the pandemic we thought, oh, we got time on our hands.
Erik: This'll be easy. And totally a misunder underestimated famous last words. Yeah. Right. To Totally, totally. Um, and ended up pitching the book to Vanderbilt and we spent a lot of time. Uh, with the application process, writing out the justifications and trying to give a sense of what other books are out there then, and there were, there weren't any, uh, that would be similar and submitted it and thought, well, you know, we'll see if they like it or not.
Erik: And then much to our surprise, almost within 24 hours, we got the response, yes, we're interested and yes, we want you to get us a draft in a year. So suddenly we were on the hook and we had to write the book.
Spencer: Yeah. Okay. So let's get into some stories. And, uh, again, because of the timeframe here, even for me learning like.
Spencer: The first story happened 10 years before I was born. Uh, so walk our audience through who is Ray Blanton and what went on in [00:12:00] the seventies?
Erik: Well, let, lemme take a step back and just point on the timeframe. Our first idea was to write a book about all the Tennessee scandals, and we quickly figured out that, that that would've be a, a massive tone and, uh, and that it would be possible to sort of write other than an encyclopedia kind of fashion.
Erik: So. We somewhat arbitrarily chose 50 years, uh, mostly because you wanted to start with this Raylan scandal 'cause it was such a, such an eyeopener And, uh, and, and, and that's how it became, you know, and as it happens there's basically one big scandal per decade. So we got 50 years and, you know, that's how, that's how it played out.
Erik: Yeah. Um,
Carli: wait, does that mean there's a sequel in the works?
Erik: Well, you know, there, there's always more right in, in fact, in the last couple chapters we had were written and published before some of the trials and some of the cases were decided. So there is updates that need to be done. I guess we can talk about those in, in, in a bit.
Erik: Mm-hmm.
Carli: Cliffhanger.
Spencer: So who is Ray Blanton?
Erik: So Ray Blanton was the governor of Tennessee in the, uh, uh, sort of late, mid to late seventies. [00:13:00] He was a former congressman from West Tennessee and won, uh, the election, I think, I'm trying to remember what it was, maybe 12 candidates for the Democratic primary. And he won with.
Erik: You know, 22% of the vote and won the nomination. Back then that meant pretty much that you were gonna become the, the statewide winner. 'cause Democrats were, were, you know, in strong control of state politics. He ended up beating Lamar Alexander, the former US Senator and later governor, um, in, in that race to win the governorship.
Spencer: And I think that's something that a lot of people don't appreciate about Tennessee politics is that for 150 years, we have alternated from Republican to Democrat in the governor's office, one after another up until this most recent cycle with Governor Lee following a previous Republican governor. And a lot of people don't think that about Tennessee.
Erik: I, I guess we should take it a step, a slight step back, not for 150 years, but as long as there's been, uh, as long as there's been, [00:14:00] as long as there's been a Tennessee, no, not, not, well, not quite. It was just factually, it was, it was basically all Democrats from like the 1860s until the, the 19. You know, seventies.
Erik: And then once demo, once demo, once you could run for reelection for governor, then it became the sort of FlipFlop thing. So when Lamar Alexander was the first one to sort of like, create that trend,
Spencer: it, it's been a remarkably interesting state from, uh, its history of politics so, so continuous on the story.
Erik: Well, Ray Blanton was turned out to be very, uh, combative, uh, and had a very, uh, sort of aggressive stance toward the media, uh, somewhat akin to what we see these days with, with President Trump. It was a sort of a pro-Trump back in the day. Uh, he. Would get into these fights over various things like pardoning, uh, uh, prisoners, inmates, people he knew, uh, and then telling the media not to ask questions, basically at a famous press conference in which he said he won't take any negative questions from the press.
Erik: So everything had to be positive. Uh, the big, uh, thing that happened, so the publication I worked for, the [00:15:00] Tennessee Journal, uh, started in 1975. So basically in the year that that Blanton took office and the publisher and writer at the time, Emily Smith was sitting in the house, speaker's office and a photographer walked in to take a picture.
Erik: And its somebody that, that Smith recognized as being a guy who'd just been convicted of double murder, uh, of his ex-wife and her, uh, new partner by shooting them 18 times with a derringer gun, which is a, you know, has two bullets, meaning he had to reload eight times. He
Spencer: meant it a lot. It
Erik: was, it was not a know, it was hard to argue was he of the moment when you have to re reload the gun that many times.
Erik: Um. Smith said he almost fell out of his chair. He said what is this guy doing here? And it turned out that he had been placed on work release from prison. He basically spent his day, his evenings in, in prison. And then during the day he had a state car and drove around taking pictures for the state.
Erik: The, uh, there was a small item on the back page of the journal back then talking about this. This Rogers Humphreys guy was out taking pictures of the speaker and the governor and it set off a firestorm [00:16:00] in Tennessee, uh, political reporting. And back then the press, the Capitol Press Corps was much larger and much more, uh, you know, extensive.
Erik: And it sort of set the tone for the rest of Blanton's administration. Uh, very antagonistic and very, uh, you know, fraught. Uh, later the FBI started getting involved and it turned out that some of the aides in, in Blanton's office were, uh, accused and later convicted of selling pardons, uh, taking money to, to pardon people.
Erik: And it all sort of culminated in the, uh, governor being driven out of office three days before his term was up to prevent him from the wholesale, pardon of, of even more prisoners. Uh, an interesting pro script is that Blanton, you know, was sort of tarred by all this, but was never charged in or convicted in that area.
Erik: He later went to prison for selling liquor licenses to bars, but not the pardon scandal that everyone sort of knows him for. And that was, uh, the, the sort of focus of that chapter in the book.
Spencer: You can sell [00:17:00] pardons, but as soon as you start doing liquor license, that's a whole other ball game. Right. How was the process of the research as you went through and talking to some of the people that.
Spencer: Lived through some of that season.
Erik: Yeah. You know, we, you know, I, I've said this before, but you know, a lot of people talk about is journalism being the first draft of history. And in state politics it's also tends to be the last draft of history. There's no sort of follow up, there's no books. You see it in Washington, you see all these books that come out all the time about things that happened last year in great detail, reexamination analysis and, and we just didn't have that in, in state politics.
Erik: So that was, again, one of the, the, the, the causes for, for this book. And, you know, going back sort of in the timeframe of the book, half of the stories, half of the scandals I had been involved in covering and the other half happened before I came on the scene. And, and in some cases, you know, before I was a, a professional, before I was a, had a career, uh, including the Blanton, which, you know, I was born in [00:18:00] 75, so that was, you know, these act, a lot of these activities are happening around the time I was born.
Erik: Um. You know, a lot of the people in the Blanton Saga are no longer around. Yeah. It's been a long time. So we did a deep dive into a lot of the newspaper coverage at the time, which is extremely, uh, extensive. And the big challenge was taking a huge stack of news clips mm-hmm. And distilling it into a narrative and not having it be the turn of the screw that every newspaper coverage was at the time.
Erik: Uh, these days it isn't as, as much, you know, if you try to go and look at various scandals, it's hard to really find out what's going on until there's a jury verdict or something, or something big happens. Um, so. But we did benefit by electronic newspaper archives. newspapers.com is an incredible resource, uh, for that sort of thing.
Erik: And we did some FBI, uh, FOIA requests, freedom of Information requests, and got some more details and information about Blanton and, and others in the, in the book. And we had some interviews with people like Lamar Alexander, who is gracious enough to speak to us. Uh, so [00:19:00] yeah, no, it was, it was, it was a lot of, a lot of material to work with.
Erik: And the challenge then is distilling it down and making it an interesting and a compelling narrative for people who, like yourself, might not have any sort of institutional memory of this. It's all a new story.
Carli: I'm curious 'cause you have. Covered so much in different states. Why don't you think there is this reexamination on the state level in the narrative of what you've even said this morning?
Carli: It's the Press Corps is getting smaller and smaller at the state level. And I see it just anecdotally in friends, everyone wants to talk about what's going on in dc. Very rarely are we talking about what's being argued on our own Capitol Hill. Why do you think there is this change? 'cause arguably local politics impacts our daily lives so much more than what is going on in DC
Erik: Yeah, you're you're absolutely right.
Erik: I think, you know, from every topic, from taxes to, you know, guns, abortion, business regulation, you name it, all that happens at the state level. Yeah. Um, [00:20:00] and then perhaps even more so at the municipal level, depending, you know, that's even closer to home for, for a lot of folks. But, uh, from my personal expertise, it's, it's the state level.
Erik: You know, I, I think that the, the demise of, of the old newspaper model has done a lot to that, you know, back, back in, in the day and, and you name whatever period you want. 10, 15, 20, 50, a hundred years ago, the State House was covered extensively and, and very closely, especially the home delegation. So if you're from Knoxville and you open the paper in the morning, or one of your two papers at the time mm-hmm.
Erik: You get a heavy coverage of what your delegation was up to in Nashville. And people paid attention and they cared because they knew these people and, and they were interested. Um, I think what's happened in, in, as newspapers have struggled to hold onto audiences, they've done a lot of reader surveys and they say things like, you know what, what do you wanna read about in the newspaper?
Erik: Do you wanna read about State House? And people are like, no, I don't, that doesn't sound interesting. But then if you say, do you wanna read about, you know. Lawmakers scandals or lawmakers passing bills that you either agree or disagree heavily [00:21:00] with. And then people say, yes, right? They do care about the issues.
Erik: And when the big stories hit, they get a lot of attention. But people don't really know going into it that they, that they can, that they're gonna care about it. 'cause it sounds kind of theoretical and abstract and, and, and, and boring procedural maybe. Uh, and that's just, that's not been my experience at all.
Erik: I mean, it's a very vibrant and exciting and, and, uh, and, and interesting place to cover.
Carli: I find it so interesting because even in our local community, the local politics, there was this big uproar about something recently and it was really hard to find other than message boards, like neighborhood message boards or hearsay.
Carli: Like I talked to so and so and they said this was happening. I really couldn't find a reliable source to understand who was saying what and who wanted what. And I, for the first time, I think I really realized what a hole we have on the very micro local level to, to know how to make a decision about things.
Erik: It's true, you know, at [00:22:00] sometimes I feel like the news, so subjects don't mind this so much, right? Because it also obscures what's happening and everyone feels they can, that's interesting. Craft their own message and they don't need to like answer the tough questions from a, a critical press corps. And it is the inherent tension that the Press Corps is critical.
Erik: I mean, it's, our job is to sort of parse through what's being proposed, what's real, what's not, what's accurate, what's what's spun. And that makes a lot of people. Uncomfortable 'cause nobody wants to be questioned. Mm-hmm. Of course, as a journalist, that's sort of what we do and we sort of revel in, in asking uncomfortable questions.
Erik: I, I acknowledge that not everyone loves it, but it, you know, and, and then if you're a, a partisan person or you have a partisan position you don't like necessarily either when people shine a light on something and say, this isn't what it appears to be, or somebody went astray or something like that. Um, but if you don't have it, all you're left with is sort of next door post from somebody who has incomplete information, uh, or has their own ax to grind.
Erik: And, and then what do you, what do, how do you make up your [00:23:00] mind? Yeah. Uh, so you're absolutely right.
Carli: It makes you disengage. If you feel like you can't find it, then you kind of start feeling like, what's the point?
Erik: Right.
Spencer: Another major story that you cover is Operation Rocky Top. Uh, so walk us through what Operation Rocky Top was all about.
Erik: Well, first of all, the, the, the title is, is a, is a state song, uh, Rocky Top Tennessee, as we all know from the, from the, uh, from the UT Fight song, uh, and the FBI did this a couple times. They used state songs to, to name their, their corruption, their public corruption, uh, investigations and stings, much to the chagrin of, of lawmakers.
Erik: This is, this is insulting. How could they do this to us? However, uh, the state now has about 19 state songs, so there's ample opportunity for more to be named. It's, it's almost like they're laying the groundwork.
Spencer: It's like la naming hurricanes, you know? It's like you just, uh, have enough to be able to choose from that's can't run out of names.
Spencer: That's
Erik: right. Um, the Rocky top, uh, investigation was a investigation into, uh. Oddly enough, a [00:24:00] bingo gambling, uh, scheme that was going on. Uh, Tennessee has long had a ban on, on gambling, uh, which has lifted in recent years. The, the, the lottery was authorized in 2002, and since then we've gotten online sports gaming.
Erik: But for the previous decades, uh, uh, going all the way back to, uh, I wanna say the Civil War, maybe before, uh, there's been no gambling allowed in Tennessee, the exception was charitable gaming as they called it, which was a, you know, a church having a bingo game or something like that. And to be able to do that, you had to have a charter, uh, which is issued by the state.
Erik: And what happened is that these operations that were doing real gambling, were buying a charter from your local church or whatever, and basically then turning around and holding real, you know, basically slot machine pull tabs, like that sort of thing. And it was all running out of, you know, a lot of it was running outta the State Secretary of State's office, which, which authorized these things.
Erik: And it turned out to be a big net, a vast array of, of people [00:25:00] involved and money changing hands. And what helped crack the case open was a young lawmaker at the time named Randy McNally, who was offered, was given an envelope with, with money. And I, and I wanna remember what the dollar amount was, but it was something pretty modest.
Erik: Yeah, it was small. And uh, and he was upset by it, saying, my God, I can't believe they think they can bribe me for a couple hundred dollars. You know? Um, and, uh, and, and, and he went to the FBI and, and wore a wire. Uh, and helped sort of blow this thing wide open. Um, in the end there, you know, dozens of state officials were, were convicted and, and, and there's sadly two suicides including the Secretary of State.
Erik: Um, and it was, it was, it was a really wide ranging and big scandal all over something as innocuous as bingo.
Spencer: And the guy that wore the wire. Randy McNally for our audience. Who is he today?
Erik: Well, he is the, the speaker of, of the Senate, the Lieutenant Governor. A very powerful figure. Uh, and you know, he wore this wire and told some great stories, which that we have in the book as well, including at the time the wire wasn't [00:26:00] something as simple as slipping a recorder into your pocket.
Erik: It involved a, you know, harness and having on your leg or on your back or under your arm. And he was walking outta the Senate one day and some, a colleague came up and tapped him on the back and it turned out the, the harness had been twisted on, you know, it was, and he felt this thing. He's like, what you, He said like, Randy, are you wearing a, a holster?
Erik: And McNally's like, got all nervous. like, oh, no, no, it's just my suspenders are twisted. Uh, you know, and then kind of moved on and thought, you know, the gig was gonna be up. Um, I
Carli: dunno, I feel like a holster would be socially acceptable and Tennessee politics, but maybe not
Erik: surprisingly, there's, there's no guns allowed in the state capitol.
Erik: They, you can, you can carry a gun in the legislative office complex, but not in the capitol itself. And, you know, not then either. Um. McNally's an interesting guy. You know, like a lot of, you know, he was real, one of the real heroes of this story, uh, of this investigation and of, of this public corruption sting.
Erik: But a lot of people had a lot of mistrust for him for a long time because a lot of things at State House are said in confidence and people like to whisper to each other and, and keep secrets. [00:27:00] And people would see McNally coming and be like, oh, watch out, don't talk into the flower kind of thing. Um, half kidding and half not right.
Erik: People were nervous because, you know, some people are up to no good and they don't want other people to know, but evidently it didn't hurt him in the long run because he has been the speaker now for I wanna say eight, eight years. And, and he's been, he is very, you know, and he's very well respected.
Carli: Bingo.
Carli: Who would've, who would've thought bingo, you know?
Spencer: It really does give that like old school western feel of, you know, totally does the back of the room and the bingo turn in and it's amazing how much. Things change, yet they stay the same. Like the first story talking about pardons and scandal around pardons, that's a story from 50 years ago in Tennessee, and it's a story from 12 months ago at the federal level, right?
Spencer: It's like there's nothing new under the sun. We have, you know, gambling operations [00:28:00] that now, uh, uh, we, we, uh, you know, are seeing mass legalization, uh, but not in every state. And there's all kinds of ways of trying to sneak around it. And, you know, back when poker was played underneath the table, I mean, it's just a, an evolution that shows you that, you know, while things have changed, not many things have changed, like what you would expect, um.
Spencer: Third story. We're not gonna be able to cover 'em all. But I wanted you to talk a little bit about, uh, the butcher collapse. 'cause that just has a great name. But, uh, tell me what the butcher collapse was.
Erik: This was a little bit of an outlier in our, in our stories, because it's about a guy named Jake Butcher and his brother CH Butcher, who were bankers.
Erik: And a lot of what they did happen outside of the, the realm of, of the State House, except that Butcher had been a nominee for governor. Uh, and he ran against the same Lamar Alexander in, uh, to succeed Blanton. And, and Alexander ended up winning a very well politically connected family. And they built a [00:29:00] huge banking empire based outta Knoxville, uh, and helped, uh, land, oddly, really, uh, the, the, the world's fair in Knoxville.
Erik: In the early eighties, and, uh, you know, much to a lot of people surprised, I think there was a Simpsons episode about that, a couple, you know, several years ago now, and people sort of laugh about why Knoxville
Spencer: and it was a huge, I mean, it was like billions of dollars worth of banking size. It was,
Erik: well, yeah, so the bank was huge.
Erik: The World's Fair was huge. President Reagan was here for the opening. Like all, all the things, the, when the dust settles on the on the fair, suddenly. The word starts creeping out that there's problems with the butcher banks. And basically they were the bank. He had several banks and they were all loaning money to each other in a, in a sort of pyramid scheme.
Erik: And the whole thing collapsed. And at the time it was the country's biggest banking collapse on record, which is a pretty big deal for a banking, you know, Tennessee, based in Knoxville, you know, not the center of the banking universe. So nationally. Um, it was, it was a big mess and it was really difficult for [00:30:00] Democrats because this had been their standard bearer.
Erik: And, uh, and, and it was just a really fun to go back and look into the sort of machinations of, of what, you know, how that, how they built it up and how it fell apart and how people try to deal with it, with the, uh, fallout
Spencer: Bernie Madoff, right? It's like we see the same financial schemes of today, uh, happening, uh, then.
Spencer: And I just find it amazing to the kind of underlying. Cooperation that has to occur. And then when it, when it stops, it's like when the music stops, it all comes crashing down so quickly. Uh, I have a favorite saying of mine is that things change slowly and then all at once, and that's what I see. It's almost like you need that for the scandal element.
Spencer: If something kind of has this long, slow decline over time, it kind of takes the [00:31:00] salacious out of it. You need that rapid headline causing collapse to really sear it into. A memory.
Erik: I think there is a, a, a sort of breaking point that happens, and it happens in, in, throughout the book at different times. But you're right, for the first instinct in a lot of these scandals is for the whatever the party is.
Erik: And when the Democrats were in charge, the Democrats did this, and now the Republicans are in charge. They do the same or have done the same. Uh, when this camera breaks, the first instinct is circle the wagons, sort of blame your enemies, blame the media, blame, you know, your political opponents, you know, blame circumstances.
Erik: Uh, and then slowly but surely as, as more information, you know, drips out, people start jumping ship, and then the, the first folks start, you know, turning on their own people and then you know, at some point the, the center can't hold, and that's that. Um, but yeah, we see this over and over again where the, the, the first natural instinct is to try to deflect and ignore until you can't anymore.
Erik: [00:32:00] Maybe not at the federal level, but at the state level. Yes.
Spencer: You've seen the media landscape evolve a lot over your career and I still sense that media is trying to figure out, do I hide all of my content behind a paywall, which annoys everyone and usually sends people on a pathway to figuring out how to bypass it.
Spencer: Uh, do I give away all the content, but then how do I make a living and provide, do you have any thoughts about having seen it evolve and you've lived it personally, what that system should look like? Or anything that you've seen be effective?
Erik: Uh, yeah, I, I, I'm not a media investor, right. So I don't really know the business side that well.
Erik: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's like, like the old line in journalism is, if I was good at anything else, I'd probably do that and make more money. Uh, right. so the, the, the publication I work for now, uh, is, is a, a fully paid, uh, outfit and people who really want to know what's happening inside the capitol [00:33:00] are, you know, are willing to spend the money to, to get it.
Erik: Uh, it's not a public service in that sense that it doesn't go to the, the masses. And, and having previously worked for the wire service, the ap, which went to everybody, it was a little bit of change in, in outlook for me. And it was a little bit difficult 'cause I, you know, I want people to read what I've written, you know, just, just so I know it.
Erik: I'm not just sending it out to the ether and that nobody cares. Um, but. You know, on the other hand, these are businesses and they do need to make money. They need to pay our salaries and, and pay for the, the, the business side. So it's, it's an interesting balance that has to happen. Um, you know, there is also the nonprofit model, which is now sort of coming out like the Nashville banner, uh, the new Nashville banner that's out and, and they get money from foundations and don donations and work it that way.
Erik: And their stuff is all free and outside of a paywall.
Erik: Um, there has been some more conservative leaning groups too, like the Center Square and others that are offering news. I think like a lot of things, you just know where people are coming from to know what you're getting. Uh, [00:34:00] not everyone is that media savvy, and it'd be nice to have a sort of cheat sheet of like, you know, and it's, you know, I know a lot of reporters that work in all of these outfits and, and most of them do a, a great job.
Erik: So, you know, it's almost like you have. Consume things and, and from various angles, and you'll get in the end a a good sense of what's, what's really happening.
Carli: You know, it's hard to know where to start though. 'cause if everybody has a paywall I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, I'm a capitalist if, where entrepreneurs like you have to make money and pay for everything, but at the same time to be able to be well read and say, let's say I wanna read something right, something left, something in the middle.
Carli: You're talking three to five paywalls that I'm paying for regularly. Um, it's hard to know who to trust right now. And I think that's, you know, trying to raise kids that know what's going on in the world, but not doing it with nightly news that truly could scare them. And I'm not shielding them, but it's like they're scary things, trying to figure out how to teach and where to get the right stuff.
Carli: It's really overwhelming. [00:35:00]
Erik: Yeah. I mean, in, in this city, in Nashville, there used to be the Nashville Tennessean and the Nashville Banner. And the Tennessean was considered more left of center and the banner was more right of center. And the best thing you could do is read both of them, right? Mm-hmm. And, uh, and then you get a good sense of, you know, probably the news is somewhere in the middle.
Erik: Um, and that's where things like the, the, when I was at the wire service, that's where the, where the wire lived, right? Because if the wire has to appeal to, you know, any customer they have, which goes from Fox News to M-S-N-B-C, and, and if you are skewing things, either way, they're not gonna want the product.
Erik: Um, now I. It'd be loath to tell children, like, you must sit down and only read the Associated Press or something. It's not exactly tailored to your hometown news, but, uh, it, it, it definitely used to be easier to do and now it's, that is certainly much more of a challenge and having to pay, you know, a lot of times, you know, some, some outfits are more expensive than others.
Erik: Ours is, is, is fairly, you know, you get what you pay for kind of thing. Mm-hmm. But regular folks aren't gonna be paying the kind of money to get our [00:36:00] publication at this point. That's more geared toward insiders and, and lobbyists and lawmakers and, and folks like yourself who, who really care deeply about these issues.
Spencer: When you think about the moment in time where you get a piece of information or you have a story that you know. Is going to just crucify somebody, and maybe it was an experience, maybe it was legitimate error. Who do you feel like that your highest obligation is to, as a journalist? Is it to the reader?
Spencer: Is it to truth? Um, I just wonder because even when Carli and I have to make really difficult decisions in our company, the highest obligation that we have is to the company as a whole and to have someone remain here that we maybe should have let go but didn't. If it ends up sinking the whole ship, then I've betrayed everybody else by [00:37:00] not doing what I should have done with a particular customer or employee.
Spencer: And so I just wonder as a journalist how your heart goes through a moment where you know something that. You're gonna have to say is gonna be really, really tough on somebody that is gonna have to read it.
Erik: You know, it's a good question. I mean, I guess the feelings of the person that's gone astray don't always come into play for us, right?
Erik: If, if they've done something terrible or screwed up or something, uh, you know, they did it, it's not my fault, right? It's like they might not like the fact that attention is being drawn to it, but you know, it's gonna, it's gonna be covered. And if it isn't covered by me, it's gonna be covered by somebody else.
Erik: Um. You know, these are public officials, you know, they get elected, they swear an oath to uphold the constitution and to, to act honorably. And if they [00:38:00] don't, then they deserve the, the scrutiny that they, that they get. I mean, they deserve scrutiny anyway. Uh, but you know, if I'm scrutinizing that your legislative proposals is gonna feel a lot different than I'm scrutinizing the fact that you were charged with, or you know, that you've done something untoward,
Carli: bingo, scandal.
Erik: Right. And any, and not you, of course, personally. Um, the, but you know, I, it, it, it's an interesting idea of like, whether it's the public or the truth. And, and I, and I see them as being part of the same, you know, same side of the coin. Um, you know, we are there to sort of hold people to account and to make sure they're doing what they say.
Erik: And if they don't, we're gonna call 'em out and say, you know, this guy is, is not, or, or this woman isn't, you know, doing what they say they're doing. Mm-hmm.
Carli: I feel like you've kind of seen it all. You know, you've been there 20 years, you've seen a lot of people come and go. You've seen this transition from where we were going back and forth, Republican, Democrat to Republican, Democrat to a Republican, super majority.
Carli: In the [00:39:00] interest of trying to encourage people to really engage in local politics, and at least on the Tennessee state level, if they don't feel called to their county level, what do you think would surprise people about what you see day in, day out about how decisions are made and who's coming in and out?
Carli: What are some things that you could really say that would be like, you should be interested because X and Y and z that you probably didn't know?
Erik: I think that regular people have a lot more influence over what's happening, uh, at, at in, in any, in any, uh, political realm than, than you think. Um, somebody, uh, you know, a bill is up on whatever issue and then a lawmaker will say, well, I had a constituent come and tell me x.
Erik: And who knows if that was the only constituent that said that, but that sticks in the mind of a, of a, of a public official. Because they care ultimately what their voters think and what their community thinks, but specifically their voters. And so I think people can have a lot more influence over proceedings.
Erik: You know, even big picture item, uh, big [00:40:00] picture things by just going and talking to their, their lawmaker or their mayor or their, or their, you know, county commissioner or you name it. Um, you know, I think at the end of the day people don't want to go against what the public sentiment is and some, and when they do is usually when they.
Erik: You know, start going astray and people get mad. We had a bill that ran through the legislature for about a decade. People were fighting about it, and it had to do with whether or not supermarkets should be allowed to sell wine. And every poll you saw and anybody you ever talked to said, yes, we want this.
Erik: It was like 80% that wanted it, but the special interests that the legislature managed to get the lawmakers to sort of put the brakes on it and refuse it for a long time, and then it finally passed. And part of that law involved local referendums. They had to be approved on the local level. Every single community that's had a referendum, it's passed overwhelmingly.
Erik: And now, as you know, I mean there's wine in the supermarket and nobody bats an eyelash, right? 'cause this is what people wanted and this is what they needed, um, or thought they needed. But, uh, [00:41:00] you know, that was an interesting one to watch where sort of public opinion went counter to what a legislature was doing.
Erik: And it took 'em a long time to sort of grasp that. Um, I can't on that point, I can't remember directly if anyone was sort of targeted in election campaigns over the issue. But, uh, things like that tend to sort of hurt people as they, you know, try to go tell their voters. You have put me back in there. I'll do what you say.
Spencer: I think that's a great point, Erik. I've talked to a couple elected officials about various issues and I'm like, you know, how many people reach out to you on these types of things? They're like, you know, Spencer, I might get a. Couple emails over something, maybe five or ten And I was like, what would be like a, an earth shattering amount of outreach that would be like, oh my gosh, this requires my attention.
Spencer: And especially at the state level, they're like, if I had 50 people reach out, like call in, sending an email that would have my full and undivided attention that this is a big deal. And [00:42:00] that just stunned me because when you think about how many people's lives are impacted by certain decisions, where if they knew that, I mean, you could get a, a small community, I mean like two or three Sunday Bible schools put together, call your elected official and you really could change the course of their decision.
Spencer: And you might still be the overwhelming minority. Yeah. But it's all they're hearing. And so I think your message is so important that. The average Tennessean has the capability of impacting things because of the apathy of so many other people in the state. Or even if it's not apathy, it's the belief that, oh, well I'm just gonna be one voice amongst tens of thousands and it won't matter.
Erik: I think the flip side to that is that there is organized campaigns that go on that are sort of, here's a form letter, send this to your lawmaker. Mm-hmm. Right? [00:43:00] And, and I think lawmakers are very, uh, skeptical of that sort of thing, right? Yeah. That they get 500 emails and they're exactly the same, and they're also very tuned into who's writing.
Erik: So they'll say, oh, I got, you know, a hundred emails, but none of 'em were from my district. Right. It's all random people. Oh,
Carli: they do know who's exactly in their district. Absolutely right. A t Yeah. So
Erik: that, that's not persuasive. The volume alone isn't per persuasive, but, but specific, uh, you know, calls, emails, correspondence, that, that aren't sort of mass generated, I think do have a lot of influence.
Erik: Hmm.
Spencer: Erik, the way that we wrap up each of the podcasts that we do is I have three short fill in the blank sentences for you that, uh, I'm gonna read the prompt to you with a blank at the end.
Erik: I was told there wasn't gonna be a test.
Spencer: Yes, they lied. Yeah, that's right. Welcome to the podcast. so if you'll repeat the prompt to me and then fill it in with a word or a short phrase at the end.
Spencer: Okay. Alright. Alright. Here's number one, [00:44:00] the most misunderstood thing about Tennessee politics is blank.
Erik: Yeah. The most misunderstood thing about Tennessee politics is that it's really rough and tumble and really fun to behold and to, you know, keep tabs on. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Spencer: Number two. If I could bring back one old school newsroom tradition, it would be blank.
Erik: And if I could bring back a newsroom tradition, it would be more AM and pm newspapers, uh, you know, to to, to duke it out like they did in the old days.
Erik: I don't see that happening, but I think it'd be great.
Spencer: I can appreciate the nostalgia that comes along with the anticipation of that newspaper dropping and that moment, just because there's [00:45:00] no real leaks about it. There's the excitement of what's gonna be there and now with it. So real time, you just don't have that moment of reveal.
Spencer: It's just a,
Erik: well, you can't anticipate it 'cause it just happens, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Spencer: Hmm. Number three,
Spencer: from the political scandals that I've covered, it's made me realize blank.
Erik: Yeah. From, from the political scandals that I've covered, it made me realize that people get away with things for far longer than you expect. Um, a lot of the people that we wrote about in the book were, were sort of up to shady things for a long time before they eventually got popped.
Carli: Don't tell that to my teenagers, please. There is immediate retribution. You can't get away with things that, but that's the difference, right?
Erik: In politics, people get coddled or, you know, protected and don't, aren't penalized for things they should have been. And if you don't, then [00:46:00] that builds,
Carli: they're not being parented.
Carli: You're like, you're basically trying to parent politician. Yeah.
Erik: I wouldn't think of it that way necessarily, but I, but I definitely feel like, you know, if the consequences are worse for or, or more serious for earlier and more minor transgressions, then that prevents the bigger and and more serious ones from happening later.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Spencer: Erik, I really appreciate the time on the podcast today. Getting to talk to journalists are some of my most interesting discussions that I get to have because there is a level of. Willingness to scrutinize something far past the point of what is socially acceptable. And what I do find though, is that there is an underlying desire to get it right, to get to the bottom of an [00:47:00] issue amongst the best of the journalists.
Spencer: Um, you do see some people that have an ax to grind for one direction or another, and it may be intentional, it may not be, it's a discussion for another time of, you know, what they're being incentivized to do. Um, but what I appreciate about getting to read, uh, your work, getting to read the book, is that there is a storytelling component that you do particularly well.
Spencer: Um, and I appreciate that as someone that has had to come into the political world where a lot of this stuff happened before I was on this planet, but you bring it to life in a way that isn't a cold and calculated retelling of just a story that everybody's forgotten. Um, but I think it's really instructive for [00:48:00] people today to be able to learn from the past, uh, and be able to see that there really is nothing new under the sun.
Spencer: And so I appreciate the time that you've spent with us here, uh, telling the stories and the way that you do, uh, and your willingness to, um, serve our state. In the way that you have over decades,
Spencer: But I just really appreciate, uh, what you have, done and the way that you've helped shape, the history of Tennessee and how it's told.
Erik: Well, thanks so much. Thanks for having me,
Spencer: Erik Shelzig, the editor for the Tennessee Journal, gave us both a lot to think about in this session. It's also what I really appreciate about reporters is that they will handle being asked hard questions, and especially when you have them trapped here, like they'll give their best answer to it. Yeah. He didn't even know what
Carli: he [00:49:00] was getting into once we got started.
Carli: He couldn't, uh, he couldn't escape. Goodie.
Spencer: Yeah,
Carli: he did a great, he handled. Questions. Great. And I think we were just chatting as he was walking out before this and he said, you know, not taking it personally, realizing that it is business and that everyone has a job to do and his is to report on what other people are doing.
Carli: It's just the way the world works. Mm-hmm.
Spencer: I can also imagine that when you've poured your life decades at a time into a certain occupation.
Spencer: That being looped in with the media as a whole
Carli: Yeah. Is
Spencer: a really hard thing to swallow because it'd be similar, like if you and I got root, you know, looped in for business, you know, it's just so much different than that. It's like we wouldn't identify ourselves as like, well, you know, we do business. Yeah.
Spencer: It's so much more personal and entrepreneurial and there's a lot of people that do bad [00:50:00] things in business. There's a lot of people that do bad things in journalism, but I think the media is currently really being burned at the stake, uh, and deservedly so for some of the conduct, but it does burn everybody.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Spencer: At the stake and trying to differentiate yourself from the problem actors. I think is really hard in that industry.
