The Car Sales Trick That Made Him a Better Sheriff | Sheriff Russell Barker
Before he became Anderson County’s sheriff, Russell Barker worked in debt collection and car sales. In this episode, he tells Spencer and Carli how a technique called “pop and pause” carried over into law enforcement, and why he still uses it today. They also dig into what a sheriff actually does, what it was like to go from a small task force to managing 183 employees, and how Anderson County’s work-release program helps inmates pay off court costs and rebuild their lives.
About Sheriff Russell Barker
Russell Barker is the Sheriff of Anderson County, Tennessee, now in his third term after first taking office in 2018. Born and raised in Anderson County, Barker came to law enforcement at 31, after working in debt collection and car sales and serving in the Marine Corps Reserves. He went on to work as a patrolman, community education officer, and detective before directing the 7th Judicial District Crime Task Force. He has served as president of the Tennessee Sheriffs’ Association and was named the 2025 Tennessee Sheriff of the Year.
Accountability That Changes People
For Barker, running a jail is about what happens after the cell door opens. Anderson County’s work-release program partners with a local business to put inmates to work while they serve their sentences, then teaches them how to manage money, pay child support, and clear court costs. Barker says people who have left the program in the last year and a half generally owe nothing when they get out. It’s a philosophy shaped by his faith and by years of watching people leave jail with no money, no plan, and the same circumstances that put them there.
“Punishment doesn’t necessarily mean being mean. It’s accountability, confinement.”
-Sheriff Russell Barker
About the Anderson County Sheriff’s Office
The Anderson County Sheriff’s Office serves the county north of Knoxville that includes Oak Ridge and Clinton. In Tennessee, the sheriff is an elected position, and the office runs the county jail in addition to patrolling the county. Under Barker, the office has grown its patrol presence and placed a school resource officer in every Anderson County school.
Resources
Anderson County Sheriff’s Office
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Spencer Patton: [00:00:00] Welcome to Signature Required. It is intended for Tennesseans by Tennesseans
Sheriff Russell Barker, Anderson County Sheriff, welcome to Signature Required.
Sheriff Barker: Thank you so much.
Spencer Patton: Russell Barker is the sheriff of Anderson County, Tennessee, recently sworn in for a historic third term. Born and raised in Anderson County, he came up through local law enforcement, not politics, working narcotics and multi-jurisdictional task force cases before taking office in 2018.
He's also been a leading statewide voice for Tennessee sheriffs, having served as president of the Tennessee Sheriffs Association. It is a real privilege. You are a personal friend of mine- Yes ... and I have been looking forward to the chance to have you sitting in this chair for more than a year. So it's special to have you here.
Sheriff Barker: Boy, I'm probably gonna disappoint.
Carli Patton: No, not possible.
Spencer Patton: You [00:01:00] are an amazing storyteller. You are also someone that, you know, sometimes people, you just know that they're in law enforcement, right? Right. You can look at them and you're like, "That guy is scary. It's intimidating." I would not necessarily guess that you were a sheriff if I just met you on the street.
Oh, yeah. Um, so tell me a little bit about who you are and what your journey was to become a sheriff. Like, for someone that doesn't know you, has never heard of your name, who, who is Russell Barker?
Sheriff Barker: Okay. Um, so listen, I got into law enforcement late. I was 31 years old when I first went in. Um, prior to that, I had done two things.
I had called third-party debt collections on medical bills, and I sold cars. Primarily selling cars, right? And I, I had applied at our local, uh, police office, or police department to join the reserve program. I, I had [00:02:00] been in the Marine Corps Reserves, and I was kind of missing the camaraderie of it all, and the uniform.
So I applied, and when I went in and interviewed, they called me up and asked me if I wanted to do it full time, and, uh, and I did. So.
Spencer Patton: Kind of some scrappy stuff through there. Debt collection- Yeah, yeah ... car sales.
Sheriff Barker: So, so what i- what was, um, amazing is, is my m- the, honestly, those two industries, s- more specifically, uh, the car business, really taught me how to, uh, build rapport and communicate, right?
Mm-hmm. And, um, and it, and it was kind of the launchpad for everything I did. I only spent about three, three, three years on the road- Okay ... uh, as a patrolman, and then I got moved, um, after that into community education. And I did a lot of public things where I'd go out, um, taught the D.A.R.E program and things like that.
And then from there I moved into, uh, criminal [00:03:00] investigations. Mm. Now, I, I used to joke because out of all the training that I've had, interview interrogation kinda was my thing. And, uh, a lot of people talk about the Reid- Mm ... uh, uh, the Reid technique interview interrogation. The best thing I ever had was Toyota powers of persuasion.
Uh, I'm not kidding you. And it was like literally, um, it, some of the best stuff ever. Um, and, and I used it consistently, still do today, um, throughout my career. That- That's amazing. Yeah.
Carli Patton: So you've been trained as a Marine, you've been trained in debt collection- ... you've been trained as an officer, as a community c- relations expert, but it was Toyota sales, power of persuasion- Yeah, that's true.
Yeah ... that got you here today.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. So I mean, like, uh, so they would do... So one of the things was, uh, pop and pause. And I, and honestly, it's so, it's so effective. Um, so you would say, uh, the Toyota, when I was selling [00:04:00] cars, they would say, um, "I will, I'll sell it to you for 13 nine."
Carli Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Pop, pause. Next one that speaks loses, right?
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: And it creates uncomfortable silence, but it's only uncomfortable for the other party because you know it's coming. Mm. You're creating it.
Spencer Patton: Yeah.
Sheriff Barker: Right? And so I just translated that over into interview interrogation.
Spencer Patton: Mm. "
Sheriff Barker: Spencer, did you steal that car?"
Spencer Patton: Oh, see, that's good. So- And then- ... it kind of creates like oral diarrhea in a way- Yeah
of just like- Oh, no ... people are so uncomfortable- Yeah ... with it, where it's like they've just gotta fill the silence, right? Yeah, absolutely. Like, they feel so uncomfortable- Yes ... that they just gotta say something
Sheriff Barker: to fill it. A- and I know it's common, right? Mm-hmm. So it does... A- and honestly, if you think just in everyday communications, um, you'll say something, you know, you know, "How was your weekend?"
And if they don't... Y- you don't feel like they respond quick enough, you f- you fill the void- Mm ... with some words. I, I'm, um... It was awful pretty, you [00:05:00] know? Mm. It was awful pretty weekend. Um, so if... But if you know you're creating it, it, it's a, it's a, it's a real technique that honestly is, is amazing.
Carli Patton: Wait, I have to ask, do you have kids?
Sheriff Barker: I have one, yeah.
Carli Patton: Is it a son or a daughter?
Sheriff Barker: A daughter.
Carli Patton: God bless- She's a lot ... the man that comes according- So- ... for your daughter. You're gonna pop and pause that guy into perpetuity.
Sheriff Barker: So, um, y- there, there's always this thing about, um... You've heard it. You know, h- h- you're cleaning your guns- Mm ... first time the guy comes, right?
Well, um, I h- I always wanted to do... And, and my wife was a hard no on this, but I would... I w- I said, "What I'll do is they come in to take my daughter on a date, they give me their driver's license. I get out my business card- ... write my cellphone on it, and I write their driver's license number on it, and I hand them my business card back, and I pocket their ID.
[00:06:00] And, um, I tell them, "Okay, in the event you have negative contact with law enforcement tonight, on the back of my business card-" Um, is my cell phone number. So if they ask why you don't have your driver's license, you can have them call me, and if they need to take enforcement action against you, that driver's license number is all they'll need for their paperwork.
They can obtain all the information they need from that. And if they ask you why I ha- why I took your driver's license, you point to the seat next to you and says, " 'Cause I have her with me." And that way they've gotta come back in my house, and I look at them, and I get to ask them how the night went, and then they get their license back, and we'll do the exchange until I get comfortable with them.
Carli Patton: And your wife wouldn't let you do that. Oh,
Sheriff Barker: she's like, "No, you can't do that." Yeah.
Carli Patton: I was like, can we do that? You can't do that. Like, does that work for Patton girls too? Yeah. There's three of them. Yeah. We'll give you a call. Yeah. Yeah.
Spencer Patton: Oh. Oh, that's funny. All right. So for people that don't know, where is Anderson County?
Let's do some of the, the quick- Mm-hmm ... kinda who, what, [00:07:00] where. So where's Anderson County?
Sheriff Barker: Uh, we are north of Knoxville, Tennessee, uh, in Knox County. And our major city in Anderson County is Oak Ridge. And of course, we're famous for the atomic bomb, and, um, DOE a- and the nuclear facility there.
Spencer Patton: So Oak Ridge is almost exclusively, not entirely, but almost exclusively located in Anderson County.
Sheriff Barker: Yes.
Spencer Patton: So you, by being sheriff of Anderson County, know all the secrets of Oak Ridge.
Sheriff Barker: No, they keep 'em, they keep 'em pretty close to the vest.
Carli Patton: I heard you had the button-
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. -
Carli Patton: for all the stuff to know. Well, I don't
Sheriff Barker: have the codes or anything. Yeah.
Spencer Patton: I was trying the power of persuasion right there. Yeah. Yeah. It, like, I need to work on it apparently- Yeah.
Yeah ... 'cause you didn't fall for that at all. Longer pause. Yeah.
Yeah,
Carli Patton: you needed a longer pause.
Spencer Patton: Yeah, yeah.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, Oak Ridge, um, a- and, and s- we got, you know, Norris Dam, um, so Norris Lake is a, is a big attraction. Um, and, and it's pretty unique in the sense that lots of our cities, like out of, we have five [00:08:00] municipalities incorporated.
Three of them cross over into other county lines. So, uh, and, and, and to, um- boot on that, that makes it really interesting because, like, we did a search warrant when I was with the Seventh Judicial Crime Task Force in Rocky Top. And we didn't know this, uh, we'd been making methamphetamine buys out of it, and so we hit the house with a search warrant.
And when it came to court, when it came down to it, where we found the meth lab became an issue because the Campbell County/Anderson County line ran straight through the middle of the house. Hmm. So had we found it... It turns out we were good, but had we found it on the right-hand side of the house in the other bedroom, we would, our search warrant would have been null and void because it was technically Campbell County.
Uh, so the defense made that argument. But it worked out. We were literally feet inside-
Spencer Patton: Oh ...
Sheriff Barker: um, of Anderson [00:09:00] County where we found the lab.
Spencer Patton: Hmm. Wow. So for those that haven't been to Anderson County, like, what would they find if they go to Anderson County? Give us a, a quick tourist guide. Outside of Oak Ridge, like, what is Anderson County?
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. So, um, it, it's, it's a, it's a rural blend. So we have, uh, we have a lot of rural areas, um, like the New River community. Um, it's closer up to Morgan County. Um, we have Windrock Mountain, which is a big ATV attraction. That, again, is up towards the Morgan-Roane County line. Um, the city of Clinton. Uh, historic downtown Clinton is just all over the place with updates and, and our, uh, antique, uh, scene that down there.
Like, they just finished a festival there. And of course, the Norris Lake. It's, uh, just a huge water attraction. People are, are moving into Anderson County by the droves, and a lot of them are buying up, uh, lake property. So [00:10:00]
Spencer Patton: Couple other things just to get all of our listeners acclimated. So you're a sheriff, and a lot of people, I think, would mistakenly use police officer, sheriff, deputy as relatively interchangeable terms, like not necessarily knowing what the distinction is.
So if you had to explain what a sheriff does, could you help just give that distinction between- Yeah ... what people normally
Sheriff Barker: understand? So, so you have basically in your local government, you have two, two, um, two types of law enforcement, right? You have your municipality and your county, right? Um, your county is your sheriff, and he is elected.
Police chiefs are appointed, uh, by city governments. And what makes, makes the sheriff also very unique is they run the jail. Um, and each county, y- there's still small segments across the state where a municipality may have a s- very [00:11:00] small jail, you know- Mm ... two or three cells, but nothing long term. So like in Anderson County, regardless of who makes the arrest, the inmate comes to, the arrestee or inmate comes to our jail.
A- and that's the number, that's the, that is literally the biggest, um, um, point that just, that is different from municipality policing. Outside just jurisdictional, but- Mm-hmm ... um, the jail is a, is a big thing.
Spencer Patton: So for people learning, there's 95 counties in the state of Tennessee, and each one is gonna have an elected sheriff whose job it is to manage the jail.
Sheriff Barker: That's correct.
Spencer Patton: And then how is a jail different from prison?
Sheriff Barker: Uh, there's not a lot anymore. Um, and the reason I say that is, is I haven't looked at this morning, but, um, yesterday we were at probably 365 inmates, right? Over half of those are state inmates, sentenced state inmates. [00:12:00] Um, now w- we personally don't mind that because of their tier two designation, um, and some of the things that we have going on.
But at the end of the day, um, you have, um, uh, because of basically the state isn't building more correctional facilities, the burdens falls down to your county governments to keep those inmates. Now, now the state of Tennessee is very good about coming to get those who are extremely violent, have a lot of medical issues- Mm
or extremely long sentences. Mm. But in theory, when county jails were, were started, your maximum sentence would be roughly 11 months, 29 days, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but now I've got people who have been with me four or five years.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Spencer Patton: When you got started as sheriff, was it what you expected [00:13:00] it would be?
Sheriff Barker: No, I missed 95% of the job.
Um, I thought, I really was so naive. Uh, I thought that I would honestly still be running around a little bit with the dope unit, except I didn't have to do any paperwork. Right. Um.
Carli Patton: Is that why you ran for sheriff the first time? You're like, "I just need out from under the paperwork."
Sheriff Barker: No, no. It was, uh, it was, uh, it, it, it was an open seat.
I, and there- there's another story behind that. But, uh, w- but yeah, I, I, I missed it. Like, um, the... I, I'm on, you know, a dozen boards simply because I'm the sheriff. And I, most of the time I don't even know why I'm there. Because it, it doesn't... But it's just there's an appoint- there's appointments that you, that you do.
And, um, and I really... H- I had [00:14:00] supervised, you know, you know, five to eight people i- in the task force. But having 183 employees- Yeah ... was a tremendous culture shock, 'cause it's 183 different issues and problems for them. Hmm. And, um, and so I really, really missed the boat on that. And, and I'll tell you something else, um, the politics of it.
F- I was so naive thinking that, "Well, that comes around every three years," right? Mm-hmm. No, it's every day. Mm-hmm. Every conversation. Everybody has an angle when, when they're talking to you.
Spencer Patton: Hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Uh, whether it be a citizen, county commission, a business leader, even the criminals. I mean, everybody's got an angle, so.
Carli Patton: It's all the dads that want you to take the driver's license of the people dating their daughters. Yeah. That's the angle.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. But, uh,
Carli Patton: yeah, so- So that first campaign you go f- through this really interesting trajectory of being in service as [00:15:00] a Marine, and then in business, right? And now you're a police officer nailing criminals, out there fighting drugs, and then you decide to run.
What was that like trying to step into public life that way, trying to put together a campaign? Was it fun, or was it just
Sheriff Barker: crazy? Um, so it, it was real, uh, grassroots.
Carli Patton: Okay.
Sheriff Barker: Okay? Um, and our, um- We, so we, we had tremendous success in '18, uh, 'cause we were kind of the dark horse, right? Mm-hmm. Um, as a matter of fact, no one from the Clinton Police Department, which was my home agency at the time, had ever ran for sheriff and won, right?
Um, and so we got out there and just started doing our thing. But I had a group of friends, uh, my treasurer was the th- my first friend ever. Like, we grew up a block apart, you know, and [00:16:00] Alan Seavers. And so we, we, we just put together and we kind of fumbled through learning it on the fly. But one of the, one of the things that we had really going for us that is very difficult in campaigns is fundraising, right?
Mm-hmm. Now, we weren't setting any records by any means, but the fact that I had sold cars and called debt collections, it meant nothing to me to ask for money, right? Mm-hmm. Because if you said no, I'd heard that more times than a pimply 15-year-old, right? "Will you go on a date with me?" "No." Right? So, um, so that meant nothing to me to hear the word- Yeah
no, right? And, um, and, and I find that other candidates, a- and I, and regardless of what they're running for, most of them have a really hard time bringing themselves to say, "Hey, I need some seed money. Can you help me out?"
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: And here I was coming in like, "Oh, yeah. How much you got in your pockets?" You know, "I need $500."
"I [00:17:00] ain't gonna give that." "Well, what would you give?" Yeah. Pop and balls, right? So.
Carli Patton: Pop and balls, that's just the theme. Okay, so you do it the first time. You miss 95% of what you think you're about to do.
Sheriff Barker: Yes. Yes.
Carli Patton: Did it take a year or two years? When did you feel like, "Oh, now I get it"? Now I know. Yeah. I mean, you never know what you're doing in life- You're right
if we're all humble and honest about it. But when did you like, "Okay, now I understand what this work is"?
Sheriff Barker: It, it is, um, probably third year.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Honestly. I mean, by the time, by the time we found out what this last key goes to, that the previous administration had left us, they're like, "Hey, you need to file again if you're running again."
I'm like, "What? We just figured out where the keys went." You know, all
Carli Patton: these- Did they leave it as a joke? Just be like- ... "I wonder how long it'll take him?"
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. So, um, uh, and but you learn e- honestly every, every month, every day really, we're learning something new, uh, best [00:18:00] practices, things we need to be doing better, and how critical it is, um, to, to get the right team assembled.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: And, and that is, um, that is the f- that is a very tough part of it all. Yeah.
Carli Patton: So you're being sworn in for your historic third term as sheriff. What keeps you excited? I mean, you know where the keys go. You've got the team. What makes you excited to keep coming to work for this next term?
Sheriff Barker: Um, we have, we have really, um- Had an incredible impact on not just the office, but Anderson County in general, right?
Um, we have, we have increased our patrols. We got more boots on s- on the ground than we, than we had when we came in. Uh, another achievement, uh, that we're incredibly proud of is the, uh, SROs in every school. Mm-hmm. We have 15 campuses, 17 schools, and we have an SRO in every school. When we came [00:19:00] in, we had like, uh- An
Carli Patton: SRO being a school
Sheriff Barker: resource officer,
Carli Patton: yeah
Sheriff Barker: school resource officer. We had, uh, we had, uh, nine, I think, when we came in. Um, we've upgraded the equipment like you wouldn't believe. Our, our fleet is the best it's absolutely ever been. Um, and on top of that, as far as the jail side goes, we've just... Our jail administrator just recently was Jail Administrator of the Year.
Um, our programs director, uh, Lucretia Logan, she was Programs Director of the Year. I, I won Sheriff of the Year. I mean, so we have like, we've just really crushed it. Now, sometimes that gets lost with social media- Mm-hmm ... and, um, the negativity of everything that happens and kind of work. W- w- we're in business where, um, everybody's got an opinion-
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm
Sheriff Barker: all right, on how we should be doing things. Um, and sometimes we get lost in what we've actually [00:20:00] accomplished because we tend to focus on the beating we're, verbal beating we're taking. Mm-hmm. But, um, all in all, we've, we've done a good thing. Plus, listen, I, I was born and raised there, man. That's my, that's my place.
I mean, um, I, you know, uh, I go... There's so many places I go and I have memories, good memories, some bad, you know, um, depending on whether it's my childhood or a call we responded to. Yeah. But it's for the people of Anderson County, for my own family, and for, for the men and women that work for me.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff, let's maybe spend a handful of minutes talking about rural Tennessee. Let's talk about drugs, opioids, meth, things that, whether we wanna make it specific to Anderson County or not, doesn't matter to me, but I feel like you bring a really unique perspective on [00:21:00] the why behind parts of Tennessee that struggle so much with drug addiction and that cycle.
And so I wonder if you could speak for a second for those that are listening that pretty much all of us have had someone close to us impacted by opioids or impacted by drugs in general. But seeing the machinery behind it, kind of all that we have in our imagination is like some combination of what you might see on television or Breaking Bad or, you know, like you just imagine a lot of things in your head that probably mostly are not true.
And so I wonder if you could start explaining from your experience, someone that has lived it and has served this state, served your county, what's going on and [00:22:00] why is this problem so significant and sticky in the state of Tennessee?
Sheriff Barker: Okay, a couple things. So- W- we generally, when it comes to opioids, we generally see two types of addicts, okay?
One is a, what I would call a legitimate addict. Car wreck, work injury, and back in the day, the early 2000s, uh, we were over-prescribing, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and, and part of that i- the bigger picture of that is part of our culture as a country of, uh, there's appeal for that, you know? Mm-hmm. So there's, nobody is tough anymore, right?
And it is just my, my Russell Barker's two cents on it, right? Um, so opioids were over-prescribed, and it instantly created addicts. I cannot tell you how many people I've ran into who were, um, legitimate people, educated, successful, and they have some kind [00:23:00] of shoulder surgery or knee surgery. Dinner work or something.
Yeah, anything. Yeah. And they become addicted, physically addicted. But more importantly, the, um, the psychological addiction is what-
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm ...
Sheriff Barker: grabs them first, okay? Um, and I'll explain that just briefly. But the, and then the second one is we have a young crowd who, uh, erroneously believe that it's medicine, therefore there's no real danger, right?
Mm-hmm. And, um, they used, it used to be big getting their folks' medicine cabinet, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, so you see that. But the, uh, the psychological addiction is what hooks people first. Uh, there was a, there was a guy that I interviewed. Uh, I, I knew him when I was a kid, right? He was, he was older than us, and he was somebody we actually looked up to.
He had a softball, softball injury. He, he played college baseball [00:24:00] and got injured playing competitive softball in the off-season, right? Mm-hmm. That he wasn't supposed to be doing, right? Uh, toughs it out later on in life after college, very successful. Uh, ends up playing a ton of softball, but has, has a shoulder surgery.
He, um, is, uh, given pain pills, right, for his recovery. Well, he had something going on. He was brought up by a pretty religious, devout family, right? Well, he was having a... He, his girlfriend was actually married, right? Mm-hmm. So he struggled internally and morally with that- Yeah ... right, because it was against how he was, he was raised.
And, um, so in my interview when I got to talk to him, I was like, "What happened here?" You know? Mm-hmm. And he said, "The pain pills caused me not to care about my bad behavior." [00:25:00] And he goes, "And that was more addictive than the pain not being there or any of that." And he said, "And then I wake up one day and, like, I physically am now dependent upon it."
Right? Mm-hmm. "I can't function without it." So I think that you see a lot of underlying mental health problems that are the root cause. 'Cause lots of times we get people in our jail who, um, who you can't tell or if they're, um, mentally ill and they're self-medicating- Mm ... or did the drug abuse bring the mental health to the surface?
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Sheriff Barker: I can tell you this. I think as a country, um, and as a state Tennes- in the state of Tennessee, we've done a real injustice to our citizens, um, by closing down, like locally at our place it was called Lake Shore Mental Health. Mm. Um, it was a, uh, big mental health facility that had long-term residents.
Um, and, and when we got out of that business as a [00:26:00] government, um, the jails have become your new home for- Mm ... the mentally ill.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm. There's a lot of data behind that-
Sheriff Barker: Absolutely ...
Carli Patton: of, of the overcrowding of prisons and all that. Yes. And there's a lot of people that are really passionate on both sides of that issue, but there is data that shows that now the prisons are babysitting the mentally ill because so many people don't have the resources
Sheriff Barker: to get care.
I can tell you, it happens at my jail. Mm. And I know I'm not unique in that
Carli Patton: sense.
Spencer Patton: Yeah. Mm. That was a really helpful explanation. Mm-hmm. And it brings it to life in a way that evokes sympathy and the reality. Like, no one wakes up in a morning and is like, "Today is a great day to get addicted to opioids."
Be a
Sheriff Barker: junkie. Yeah. Mm. Nobody does that. Nobody sets out to do that.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Spencer Patton: So will you talk for a second on the other end, on the distribution [00:27:00] side? So if you think back to the raids that you've done and the, the structures that are responsible for distributing the drugs, can you talk a little bit about that?
Because again, if you just look at the TV shows and movies, there's very sophisticated criminal cartels that have kind of a mastermind plan behind distributing drugs. But I wonder, and my suspicion is that The raids that you do when you find people that are responsible for this, the sophistication and the, um, four-dimensional chess is probably not being played at all.
There's probably another cycle of poverty and desperation and generational curses there too. Mm-hmm. Can you talk a little bit [00:28:00] about what you've observed from the, the people that are distributing the drugs?
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. So it all, it all starts with what you just described, right? Comes from a traffic stop where you catch someone, quote, "holding," right?
They have illegal narcotics on them. Uh, most of those people are addicts or they're hustling for the habit, is what they call it, right? They try to sell enough so that their dope's free, right? Um- Always though, there's a plug. There's a s- the plug means source, right? Mm-hmm. So you get a guy for a traffic violation.
Um, the investigation reveals he's got, you know, methamphetamine on him. Um, the guy on the side of the road or a narcotics officer, someone tries to, uh, get them to flip on their source, right? Mm-hmm. Who their plug is, and then you roll up as far as you can. I've been a part of some cases where it ended right there on the street.
I've seen some that go all the way up to where it [00:29:00] got out of our, uh, for lack of a better term, our depth, our w- uh- Mm-hmm ... price range 'cause, uh, we weren't buying a, a $40 bag anymore. Mm-hmm. It was thousands of dollars or kilos. So at that point, you bring in the FBI, DEA, or someone like that, and they adopt your case federally.
Um, as far as these, uh, drug trafficking organizations, um, it's really strange because the two most popular, um, narcotics out there, methamphetamine and opioids still. Opioids, when they cracked down on what w- was called pill mills, right? Mm-hmm. Um, when that went away, that's when you saw heroin making a really big comeback.
Um, and those... So it's still meth and heroin. Um, but methamphetamine back in the day, we were finding labs in houses or discarded on the side of the road or in woods. You don't see those red [00:30:00] P labs anymore. Mm-hmm. And part of that is because, or they called it gas dope. Mm-hmm. Um, one, because we've done a really good job as a, as a society and a government of making those, um, the ingredients needed harder to get, like the Sudafed laws, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Um, that, that was a big game changer for that. Now, every time you knock one down or feel like you've got it resolved, the void gets filled with the next one. So what we see now is these super labs out of the country, and I'm sure they're probably here somewhere in the United States, but primarily Mexico- Mm-hmm
is where we were seeing it, these super labs. Uh, and that's where it went from methamphetamine, 'cause it- methamphetamine used to look like kind of a white, off-white, maybe even gray. It would look like wet laundry detergent, like a clump of- Mm ... laundry detergent, to where you hear now ice, right?
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Where it would look like shards of ice. First time we saw it, [00:31:00] we couldn't believe it, right? We were like, "What is this? We got ripped off." But it was ice, uh, because it wasn't something that was manufactured locally. Now, um- Your opioids and your heroin, um, the big vein we see in East Tennessee is, comes from Detroit.
Um, uh, and we have I-75 running straight down the middle of Anderson County. Um, and, um, there's the 313 Initiative that CBI did. Um, we participated in that some. Um, they were d- they, there was a group called the Detroit Boys- Mm-hmm ... um, and they were jumping off from Anderson County all the way into Knoxville and up beyond selling their dope.
And a lot of them would, um meet females and move in and, and kind of stay there in our local, uh, some of our local areas. So.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: But yeah, so there, so to, to your [00:32:00] question, there are drug trafficking organizations, and how far up you go, it, it, you know, is just luck, you know? Mm-hmm. And depending on, um, your ability to, to, uh, convince people and/or strong-arm them into cooperating Mm-hmm
uh, that, and, and look, so we say, uh When I was working narcotics, we'd say, "Why go to the pen when you can send a friend?" Right? That was one of our lines when we were trying to convince you to roll on your plug. Um, and depending on, you know... I, I can tell you this, that one, one thing that criminals get wrong is there is, there's, there's truly no honor among thieves.
Mm. Because they used to be lined up out our door and tell on one another.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Particularly to get their own self out of trouble. Some of them would do it just to make money-
Spencer Patton: Mm ...
Sheriff Barker: as a paid informant, so.
Carli Patton: Yeah. Mm. It does feel a little bit [00:33:00] like a TV show. You know, Breaking Bad, I just saw a article come out, is in the top five most viewed, most popular shows that have as, has existed ever.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah, that was a great series.
Carli Patton: Well, and it's interesting to me, because there is this infatuation in our country with drug culture. Even amongst people that are not addicts, there's this curiosity about, how does it work? And I think some of that's informed by how many of us, which is literally everyone, know somebody that's struggling-
Sheriff Barker: Sure
Carli Patton: in one way or another. I think we've all seen the fallout and the pain, 'cause it doesn't just hurt that person, it hurts everyone around them. And then you just kind of wanna think through the villainy of it and make it into this giant story to try to process it, when really, on the ground level, you've done a good talking about it's just painful.
It's just painful to see your childhood or high [00:34:00] school hero addicted to opioids because they got hurt.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah.
Carli Patton: And it brings humanity back to it instead of the sensationalism that I think we just wish it would stay in the movies and not happen to our loved ones.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. Um, the human, the human aspect of it gets lost-
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm
Sheriff Barker: quite a bit. Mm. Um, e- even, even with law enforcement, you can get... We, we get so desensitized to- Yeah ... to a lot of things, right?
Carli Patton: It'd be hard not to.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. I mean, um, w- this, and this sounds so morbid, but it's just the truth. One of the, one of the things that I wish I would have kept up with is how many times outside of a funeral home-
Carli Patton: Mm
Sheriff Barker: I have viewed a dead body. Because we, w- we are exposed to things that we were not meant to see-
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm ...
Sheriff Barker: on the, uh, volume of it, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and so we get desensitized to it. So- You know, [00:35:00] like, uh, I, I mean, we see, um, you know, there'll be a car wreck or you name it, fatality of some sort, and the media comes out and covers it.
And we have to be... We have supervisors that have to be re- to remind officers, "Hey, we know this body is mangled from a car wreck."
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm. "
Sheriff Barker: And you've seen this a lot in your career." Mm-hmm. "But don't be telling the joke off camera-"
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm. "...
Sheriff Barker: and the camera pick up two deputies laughing."
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. Right? Um, and, and so, so to the point of drug addicts, we get desensitized to it, um, and, a- on our end.
And, and look, so and so does the rescue community. I mean, you just get so frustrated with, uh, the, uh, whole, uh It's choice and all that. Uh, sometimes it is choice, hands down, right? Um, you [00:36:00] make the choice to ingest it.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: And that's what made opioids so different. Um, cocaine, marijuana, at, at some point, uh, any methamphetamine, you had to make the conscious decision to ingest it, to use it as a party favor- Mm
basically. Mm. Opioids produced addicts through legitimate means.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Spencer Patton: Mm. Sheriff, I'm gonna ask you a, kind of a two-part question, um, that I always find to be really helpful when I'm learning about a space that I don't have a lot of familiarity with. So on, on one hand, I'd love to hear from you if there were a couple changes that would make what the sheriff's enforcement work, uh, to be less effective, to, to be, to hamstring you.
What are some things that could be taken away from you [00:37:00] that would make your ability to protect your community a lot harder?
Sheriff Barker: Mm-hmm.
Spencer Patton: And then we'll do the opposite of it in a second, of the things that could be given to you that, that could help. 'Cause I just think the insight that you possess, having done it on the, the real field level.
I mean, you, you have done it every way, and we see the Lord do this in so many of the guests that we bring on the program, is just you have been trained up in the skills that you are utilizing in your work today. And so I just would love to hear... You, you mentioned earlier about one policy change as it relates to Sudafed.
You know? Mm-hmm. Like, I'd, I'd go into CVS, and I'd get, you know, two boxes of Sudafed, and the person behind the counter would have me filling out paperwork- Oh, man ... and showing my ID and sign it. I was like, "I, you know, let me just put one of these back." Like, I, I'm, I'm... This was not what I was intending.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I understand where that came from. So, so to, to get to it, what are [00:38:00] some things, uh, one or two, that could be taken from you that would really hurt your ability to protect your community?
Sheriff Barker: So, so right now we're in the middle of it. Um, A- ALPRs, uh, automated license plate readers. Um, what you'll see them called is Flock, right?
Um, Flock is a, a company, and they're kind of the biggest company, uh, when it comes to it. So Flock has, um, done a good job from a business standpoint that they're kind of the Coke and Kleenex of everything. You know, "Hey, hand me a Kleenex." Mm. And it's not actually a Kleenex. Um, but LPRs, license plate readers, um, there's a huge dust-up over that- Mm
um, a- across the country really. But we're going through it currently in Anderson County. Um- I'm for 'em. Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of people who are not. Um, but honestly, I, I believe if you put it on a ballot, I think it wins easily. [00:39:00]
Spencer Patton: So give us the tutorial 'cause, like, here's what I understand as a layperson a license plate reader would be, is that it is, it's some, uh, observation surveillance device that when a vehicle drives by, it reads the license plate, and if there's something to do with that license plate that would require law enforcement, somebody, I don't know who, gets notified about that and there's the opportunity to respond or not, I suppose.
Uh, and, uh, is it, is it more complicated than that? No. Help, help me... Okay.
Sheriff Barker: It's not. It- y- I mean, that's, that's really good. Uh, so the, uh, LPRs, it, it i- is taking a still picture.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: It's not, it's not a video. Um, it's a still picture of the back of your car in the State of Tennessee, right, 'cause we all have plates on the back.
And it, uh- Plates on the
Spencer Patton: front. We don't have plates on the front. Right. We have plates on the back
Sheriff Barker: only. Right. Yeah. We, we only have plates on the back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and it, and it processes it and can check it against various [00:40:00] databases. Mm-hmm. Okay? Law enforcement databases. So we have recovered boo-cos of stolen cars based off LPR hits, right?
Um, but also it helps us with, you could... One of the things that you see a lot of, uh, municipalities do that have schools inside the city, they set 'em up outside their, their schools for, uh, things such as sex offenders-
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Um, who may be, you know, mingling in and trying to blend into the crowd. Um, they're, they're good for wanted people.
As a matter of fact, you know, we were, uh, before the show started, we were talking about a homicide that happened in Knoxville city, but the, uh, the, the suspect is from Anderson County, and he's made his way back into Anderson County. He was identified from an LPR- Mm ... 'cause the only thing that they had was a [00:41:00] description of the truck that the guy fled in after the stabbing.
Um, so they pulled the, a- and he passed by an LPR. They run the tag, come back to him. He matched the, his, his DL picture matched the pictures from the, uh, from the convenience store footage. And we went from there. Mm-hmm. So LPRs are huge. Um, but there's a lot of talk about Fourth Amendment, uh, violations.
Listen, the- Which is, for people, what a, what's a Fourth Amendment violation? Uh, uh, s- uh, search and seizure. Okay. Unlawful search and seizure. Um, these things are not grabbing Bluetooth signals. They're not, they're not... That requires a search warrant. It's not the same as geofencing, which I think a lot of people get confused, geofencing versus literally a picture of your car.
So, um, the Supreme Court has not ruled on it directly, but, uh, [00:42:00] lower courts and state courts have upheld constantly that it is part of the plain view doctrine. Mm-hmm. Um, which is basically, uh, you call me into your house because, uh, your, um, you've had a burglary, let's say, right? Or that's probably a bad example.
Let's say you c- let's say you call me for theft of a lawnmower, right? Mm-hmm. And you say it was in the shed. Well, I look in the shed and I see the, the, uh, you walked me in there to show me where it was, and I see, uh, marijuana, uh, laid out in plain view, right? Well, that's enough for me to back out and get a search warrant based on the plain view doctrine.
It's the same thing, 'cause there's no expectation to privacy on a public roadway. Mm-hmm. That's particularly to a tag that is registered to the state of Tennessee- Mm-hmm ... that, um, we have your information already, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but they, a lot of people think that it, that it, that it is. And, and I get their concerns, but I disagree.
Spencer Patton: Hmm. [00:43:00] It's really fascinating 'cause as I can see the critique coming from both sides of the aisle, which, you know, usually you can identify like, okay, there's a political angle for that. But I could see how you could have some, you know, intensely Republican or even Libertarian that would say, "This is nanny state surveillance."
Mm-hmm. "And yeah, you're telling me it's a still photo, but in fact it's facial recognition software." Yes. You know? Yeah. And it's like that type. And then I could also see it on, on the other side of saying that, uh, you know, there's, uh, the opportunity to, um, unlawfully pull somebody over based upon, you know, checking everybody's license plate.
Yeah. And it's really fascinating. I can see that dynamic. And at the end of the day, it feels so unfortunate because the ultimate outcome [00:44:00] of this technology seems to be overwhelmingly positive for the community.
Sheriff Barker: Mm-hmm.
Spencer Patton: Like, I, I probably couldn't think of too many examples where it went horribly wrong.
Sheriff Barker: Right.
Spencer Patton: Um.
Sheriff Barker: So, so le- let me, uh, talk about two things real quick when it comes to LPRs, right? Um, one, the technology's been around for 20 years.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Right? Um, and it's not just a law enforcement tool. Your big box stores use it, um, as, you know, loss prevention and, and who knows what else. And honestly, they may be crapping Bluetooth, and the whole surveillance thing i- it's, uh, it really boils down to people don't want government to have it, right?
Mm-hmm. Because your iPhone, your meta app- Oh, yeah ... um, I mean, th- they're not only saying where you're at at all times, they can tell you how many steps you've [00:45:00] taken. Mm-hmm. Um, and they can, um, and, and we can sit here and talk about, you know, blue skateboards and then we're gonna get ads for blue skateboards, right?
Carli Patton: Yeah. So that's one of the creepiest things. I was gonna say, I, when you read the articles about how Target often knows that a woman is pregnant before her husband or her family based on her purchase history that she hasn't shared with people, like there are really scary articles that come out where parents have learned the state of their teenage daughters- Yeah
based on her purchase history, and they start getting coupons and wondering what's happening. Yeah. And, and so there's part of me that's like, "All of this is madness," but part of me that also is like, you know, you have to, you, if you opt in to not living in a tent down by the river where, with no anything- Like off the grid
yeah, if you- Yeah ... choose to live on the grid as opposed to off the grid, we are now as a [00:46:00] society, I think, opting into a lot of these things. And so it's an interesting argument, almost an Orwellian argument that is being had.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. So these LPRs also, it's the same thing that if a deputy is sitting in his patrol car at a red light, he can look over and read the tag- Yeah
and put it on the radio. We get the same information.
Spencer Patton: Yeah.
Sheriff Barker: Um, now what they talk about, um, is the fear of the advancement of the technology, facial recognition, gunshot detection. Uh, law enforcement is completely for, um, best practices, uh, more uniform policies so that the most rural agency and Nashville Metro all are hitting on- Mm-hmm
the same notes from a policy standpoint. And, and they make a lot of, uh, the, the detractors make a, a lot of noise out of misuse by law enforcement officers themselves. Hey, we're no different than teachers, [00:47:00] uh, clergy, private business people. I mean, w- we have bad apples at times. Mm-hmm. And nobody hates a bad cop worse than a good cop, because when we erode and lose public trust, it takes us forever- Mm-hmm
to get that back. So we're good with having, uh, laws on the books that make it crimes- Mm-hmm ... outside just policy violations. Um, and I, and I think that the point that is, uh, really, really missed is, um, that if, for example, um, the stabbing, right? Oh, well, let's take that away 'cause that's an actual case. Say there's a, there's guy rolls into the Stop & Rob and holds the clerk at, uh, gunpoint, and then leaves in a white four-door Toyota, right?
Mm-hmm. If he passes by one of our LPRs, we could do a search, white four-door Toyota, and we can see how many have come through there. And then from there it goes just to good old gumshoe [00:48:00] work, right? We're pulling the tag, we're looking. Well, that's an 95-year-old grandma. That's probably not her. Yeah. Um, you know, and we start narrowing it down Prior to that, the Stop & Rob gets hit and it's a four-door white Toyota.
We flood the area with all cars available, right? Mm. Because we got a guy who's just pointed a gun at a clerk, and we're stopping everybody because you're a white four-door car. Mm. That's your probable cause. And we're doing it by the numbers, meaning it's a felony traffic stop. We're on the PA, "Driver, with your left hand-
Spencer Patton: Yeah
Sheriff Barker: reach out the window and open the door." You know?
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Which is mo- more intrusive, us taking a picture of the back of your car-
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah ... or pulling you over for that? I mean... Mm. And so, I mean, I get it. And, and is... And, um, and then there's, there's a thing that gets way beyond way I think, but the whole data [00:49:00] in there is, is, uh, the, is the LPR company selling it?
Who owns it? Mm. Well, we own it. According to our contract- Mm ... with Flock, we own it, and it deletes after so many days. Uh, and then of course the s- tin- tin foil hat people say it's never deleted. Yeah. It might be true. I don't know.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Spencer Patton: And, and, and let's do the other side of the question. So if we could equip you with something to serve Anderson County better, outside of the license plate readers, even if you thought more creatively than that, what's something that would be of great support, whether feasible or not-
Sheriff Barker: Right
Spencer Patton: be of great support
Sheriff Barker: for you? Um, I think the number one thing that impacts law enforcement, um, whether it be the sheriff's office or a municipality, um, an- is, is funding, okay? And, and let me explain that to [00:50:00] you. Um, so There's a lot of people that don't want to be in our business, right? Uh, after Black Lives Matter and some of the things that, that have happened.
George Floyd was a huge hit for recruitment, um, when, um, all that happened. But funding, and so the state of Tennessee, um, you know, a trooper will be at $90,000. I start out at 48.
Spencer Patton: Wow.
Sheriff Barker: So I can't, I can't compete with that. So I get a really good kid, uh, put him through the academy, uh, and I get one or two years and he's in the transfer portal, so to speak.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so, um, same thing in corrections. Um, uh, Tennessee Department of Corrections was handing out $5,000 and $10,000 signing bonuses. Um, so there's only so much culture-
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm ...
Sheriff Barker: and atmosphere that can keep someone. So [00:51:00] funding, funding is an issue, and it's really mostly about, uh, pay because we're also in a, in a weird time, it seems weird to me, where the workforce is very, uh, transient, right?
Yeah. My guys will leave for $2 an hour, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, regardless that I have this free clinic that is 100% free to my employees, um, and I have, uh, uh, TCRS retirement, right? They're worried about boat payments and truck payments. Mm. Uh, not... Young people don't think in those terms. And, uh and, and one thing I will say, and I, and I'm not a big f- super fan of the federal government by no means, I, I think they get a lot of things wrong sometimes.
But one thing that I think they, they do right is like with our military, um, you can retire full retirement or a- Mm ... almost full retirement at 20 [00:52:00] years, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I think because of the nature of our retirement system for law enforcement, whether it be corrections or operations, um, we have people that stay in it way too long.
Mm. Um, I just recently had a sergeant retire and he was, he had two hip replacements- Mm ... and he was just trying to hang on till 65 because of insurance.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: And, um, and, and like I talked about earlier about we're exposed to things repeatedly, um, that are not um, that, that we're not designed to see.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sheriff Barker: Uh, in that volume. Um, a lot of the things you hear about is, uh, in law enforcement is 25/55. 55 years of age, 25 years of service you get to go home with a full retirement. Mm. I, I don't know how you get there financially, but that would be, that would be- Mm ... unbelievable. 'Cause like I got a guy right now that's turning 64- [00:53:00] Mm
this week and he's still after it.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Mm. 'Cause it's about the insurance.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Spencer Patton: That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Like
Sheriff Barker: that
Spencer Patton: is, that's
Carli Patton: tangible- It's so educational ...
Spencer Patton: it's real.
Carli Patton: Yes.
Spencer Patton: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Carli Patton: Since you mentioned it, can you tell us a little bit about your work release program? I know you've shared a lot about it.
The data is coming back really positive about its impact on recidivism. Mm-hmm. Tell us a little bit about what you have put in Anderson County and how you think that might even be scalable for other counties and their sheriffs.
Sheriff Barker: Okay. So we have a work release program. It's been up just about a year and a half.
Mm. We partnered with a business and, um, what we were seeing was is people were flattening their time and going out, um- Back to the environment that produced them with no money, owing court costs, and just simply, um, expecting something different. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Expecting not to see them back. So a couple of things happened.
We found one company that will put us, put our guys to work, and, uh, [00:54:00] guys and girls, 'cause both, both are participating. Um, and they're going over, and here's the amazing part. Um, they're, where they're dressing just like the rest of the employees. The difference is they have ankle monitors on. Mm-hmm. And there are, there are areas th- you know, of this facility that they can't go to that others can.
Like, a lot of the regular employees go out to their car on their lunch break. Our guys, one, don't have a car there. Two, we don't want them in the parking lot. Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, but we take them back and forth. Um, and it's a benefit to the employer, because if they call in sick, they're legitimately sick- Mm-hmm
because the jail's saying so. Right? Yeah. It ain't their girlfriend calling in for them. And then the second thing is is, um, they're coming back, and we're going over and teaching them how to handle money. Mm-hmm. How to write checks. Um, they are, uh, paying back child support, paying court costs, and when they're getting out, m- the ones that we've seen [00:55:00] who've got out in the, in the last year and a half generally owe nothing.
Spencer Patton: Wow.
Sheriff Barker: And that's one of the problems that we see. Uh, they will get out and still be on probation because there's a financial component to their probation.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: And that's a, what you call technical violation. Uh, well, we're not seeing that anymore with these, with these particular folks.
Spencer Patton: Which makes a ton of sense, 'cause you come out and you have a felony conviction.
You may or may not have a place to stay. It's gonna be harder to get a job, and you have financial pressure on you immediately.
Sheriff Barker: Yes.
Spencer Patton: I mean, that creates- Yeah ... the very incentives that would have you say, "Well, I don't have any other chance but to go back to the life that's most familiar with me." What I know of.
And yeah. Yeah. And I'll just try to be smarter this time.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah, absolutely.
Spencer Patton: Yeah.
Sheriff Barker: Uh, you're exactly right on that. And so, um, so we're seeing court costs paid off. Um, and one of the things, too, that my staff does a- that we started doing this, but it's kind of still very fluid, [00:56:00] um, is l- once you've got your court costs and child support and all that caught up, we're having you pay to get your license reinstated.
Now, where that becomes a little sticky is it requires a driving test. Mm-hmm. And clearly, we can't take you down there and put you in a patrol car-
Carli Patton: Sure ...
Sheriff Barker: and ask you, "Have them parallel park this one," you know? Yeah. So, so we're working on that, but we've been able to do that. And that is a, you talk about a hurdle for these people, because, um, they've been suspended, uh, for so long- Mm-hmm
or revoked for so long that, um- Road guys, your hard chargers on the road, they look and go, "That's Spencer, man. His license is suspended." Mm. Instant probable cause. You pull him over, right? Yeah. And then you get thrown right back into the system. Um, and, and it's a real whole approach, uh- Mm ... that, that our, that my staff does.
Like, we have, uh, we do th- we put together just for the work [00:57:00] release guys, right? Um, the, the staff that put together the, uh, that oversees it specifically, a sergeant that we have, um, she puts together Thanksgiving Day dinners, Christmas events, where their families get to come in. And here's the really cool part.
They just did one where it was back to school, and some of these guys and girls bought their kids back to school stuff for the first time ever- Mm ... in their life. Mm. But they had to have the structure of- Mm-hmm ... being incarcerated. Uh, but it's just amazing the gaps of information they're missing.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Carli Patton: Mm. Mm.
I think I'm so glad that we talked about this, because I don't know where my brain went. When the gavel goes down and you're sentenced to go to jail or prison, I don't know why I didn't even think about back cost at that point. It's almost like in my [00:58:00] head their life became a blank Etch A Sketch, and now they have this after moment.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Carli Patton: And then you have to work after that for your new life. But I never thought about how much would have to catch up with them. Yeah. That would leapfrog over that. And maybe that's just me being naive, but I think a lot of times it's easy to compartmentalize a prisoner's or an inmate's life into these segments of time, and not realize how much overlap there is for them financially, skills-based, relationally.
And so I really appreciate you bringing that to light and that holistic approach to, "Hey, let's get you in a financially literate place so that when you do come out, there are more options for you."
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. So our, our sergeant takes them to the courthouse, to the clerk's office, and they pull them up and say, "All right, you owe us $2,000, $5,000 in court fines and costs."
And they show them how to negotiate and work a payment [00:59:00] schedule. Now- While they're incarcerated, we're making that payment for them.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: But it gets them through that process to see. Um, we, our programs department, um, is, uh... So we, you, we... There's a huge criteria to get there, because there's a lot of risk on our part-
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm
Sheriff Barker: to, to release them, even on an ankle monitor.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Uh, but there's, there's classes, uh, pre- re- prerequisites that we, that we require that you, that you, you're a part of, and then there's a whole committee that is outside of law enforcement, you know, our county mayor and some folks are on it, to see if they're a good candidate.
One of the, one of the things that we did not anticipate was it's become such a successful program that it's really impacted our inmate behavior- Mm ... for those outside of the program, because they want to get into it.
Carli Patton: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Hm.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah.
Carli Patton: I like that. It's a carrot. [01:00:00]
Sheriff Barker: Yes.
Carli Patton: It's a motivation as opposed to just feeling like there's no hope.
It reignites a passion for what could be.
Sheriff Barker: So, so the pendulum i- in corrections swings back and forth between rehabilitation and, and punishment, right?
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: Um, f- from a, from own faith, my own Christian faith, and from, um, a point of just hard nos, right?
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Sheriff Barker: You can do both. You can. You really can, right?
Um, punishment doesn't necessarily mean being mean, right? It's accountability, confinement. But while you have them, that's your opportunity to change, to change them.
Carli Patton: So good.
Sheriff Barker: So I, I, I will, I will say this too, um- [01:01:00] We, uh, we, we have just seen, um, guys come out, and here's the really cool part, uh, that is different.
I think any... I just think just about any correctional facility, county jail could, could model this, right? And, and we're not unique to the state of Tennessee. There's others out there. I just say we do it better. I can promise you that. Um, but like, um, when these guys leave the work release program, they leave with probably at least three cell phone numbers for people that work for us, so that, um, when they get out there and run across something that's new- Mm
or they're not coming back to the facility to say, "Hey, I ran into this. What do I do?" You call us, 'cause we'd much rather deal with it on the front end than the back end.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Sheriff Barker: Yeah. And that's really cool.
Carli Patton: Mm.
Spencer Patton: Mm.
Carli Patton: Thank you.
Spencer Patton: Mm. Sheriff, we finish every podcast that we do with a [01:02:00] series of fill-in-the-blank questions.
Sheriff Barker: Okay. Oof.
Spencer Patton: Um, so, uh, I'm gonna read you a short prompt with a blank at the end. If you'll just read me back the short little prompt and fill it in with a word or a phrase- Oh, no. You know, a sentence that you feel like finishes the thought. You're gonna be able to do it. Okay. You're gonna be able to do it.
Okay? All right. Number one. You can take whatever time you need to think about it. One, a community trusts their sheriff when blank.
Sheriff Barker: A community trusts their sheriff when he is accessible
Spencer Patton: Number two, if I could change one thing about how the public sees law enforcement, it would be blank
Sheriff Barker: If I could change one thing about how people see law enforcement, it would be to see that we are human too
Spencer Patton: The thing people [01:03:00] misunderstand most about running a jail is blank
Sheriff Barker: The thing that people misunderstand about running a jail is that they are 100% in our care and custody, meaning they, um, depend on us for their medical care, their food-
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm
Sheriff Barker: everything
Spencer Patton: Sheriff Barker, as I started this off, I've been really excited to have you on here. Um, sometimes you meet people and you just connect with them in ways that you feel like you've known them- Yeah, yeah ... a lot longer than what you've known them, and I really had that connection with you the first time that, that we met.
And, uh, I just have had this intuition in meeting you that, you know, you're a, a sheriff born and raised in Anderson County, uh, a county of about, I think, 86,000 people, [01:04:00] and the passion that you have for serving your community and the knowledge is just something that I feel a trustworthiness in you that you're gonna do the very best job that you know how to do for your community.
And from that, I think there are a lot of counties, not only in Tennessee, but across the country, that while their ma- their name may be different than Anderson County, they're similar in more ways than they're different. And so I appreciate the heart of an educator that you have about the things that you need, uh, the things that are tough, and you've been very fair, I feel like, in explaining and walking us through those experiences.
Um, and that's what I really hope the people that listen to you or get to meet you in person is that you're an amazing storyteller. [01:05:00] You do a great job of teaching. You clearly have a heart for your community and the state. Uh, and so I just am really glad to give you a little bit of a megaphone here, uh, to have people hear some of your ideas.
Um, and what's especially not surprising to me at all, uh, is you winning Sheriff of the Year. So congratulations- Thank you ... on that. Um, I hope there are more sheriffs, uh, like you and that wanna be like you, uh, 'cause it's definitely part of what makes this state really special.
Sheriff Barker: Well, thank you so much.
Spencer Patton: Appreciate you being here.
Sheriff Russell Barker, Anderson County Sheriff, uh, a county that is just outside of Knoxville. Um, everything that I hoped out of this episode was what it turned out to be. Um, hearing Sheriff Barker [01:06:00] talk about his love for his community-
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm ...
Spencer Patton: and truly, I don't know that he said the word calling, but it is his calling- Yeah
to be there. He has the same signature that we see for people that have been called by the Lord to be in their job, is that his training started 10 or 20 years prior to his current role. Mm-hmm. And it was hilarious. He started off talking about his time in debt collection, in used car sales, and his ability to read people.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Spencer Patton: And the training that went into that. Little did he know, he was gonna be having life and death decisions that come directly from being able to read people.
Carli Patton: Mm. He's such a great storyteller. I mean, my favorite phrase from the whole episode is pop and pause. And funny, that's something you've tried to teach me [01:07:00] forever, because I am the worst.
I am just notoriously the worst at letting a silence hang. I get... It's like, it gives me hives immediately. I'm such an over-talker. And so that is something I've been working o- on in my grown-up years to get more comfortable. But how he describes it as, you know what you're doing. He's completely in control of it.
And when you hear him talk, he has this perfect blend of likability. He's enjoyable to be around. He can crack a joke and tell a story. He's the life of a party. But when he turns on the cop hat You can see why he demands respect in the role that he's in, and I just really like that balance of likability and accountability that he even mentioned- Mm-hmm
that he has. Um, it's a unique blend that you don't see every day.
Spencer Patton: I wish [01:08:00] more of our elected officials, 'cause the sheriff is an elected role- Right ... had to come up through the ranks like what he did.
Carli Patton: Yeah.
Spencer Patton: There's just an authenticity that is unmistakable and truly irreplaceable that he possesses, and he can look at every employee, every officer, every deputy, anybody that reports to him.
And in many ways, he's probably done either their job exactly, or at least he knows what that job entails.
Carli Patton: Mm-hmm.
Spencer Patton: And that gives you a level of authority and also relatability to 183 employees- Mm-hmm ... that he has to steward over. I wish more elected officials had to go through that, because I think we would see different results and different accountability Through that pathway.[01:09:00]
Carli Patton: Yeah. But I did think it was interesting that he talked about he had not worked in a jail.
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Carli Patton: He didn't know what that was, that that was such a big, you know, portion of what he does as a sheriff. And so I love, too, the story that, yes, he went through the ranks. He knows that inside and out. But you also have this part of grittiness that's like, "If I don't know, I'm gonna figure it out."
Spencer Patton: Mm-hmm.
Carli Patton: And nobody is gonna be perfect at every single aspect of something. It's a teachability, and it's an ability to do the job that you d- that nobody wants to do before you ask someone to do it, um, that he possesses, that I thought was really fun to hear his stories.
Spencer Patton: Yeah, he's, he's very much not absentee in the roles that- Yeah
he is not familiar with. Like, he'd said, "One of my favorite things to do is to walk the jail." And I could imagine, as sheriff, he has a lot of things [01:10:00] demanding his time.
Carli Patton: Yep.
Spencer Patton: And he would not have to walk that jail probably anywhere near as often as what he does.
Carli Patton: For sure.
Spencer Patton: But he does, and he's present, and that matters.
You can hear just from his stories. Like, the inmates in there, they know him. And I bet there are sheriffs across the country that could walk through the jail, and the inmates would have no clue who he was and would give no credibility to that
person.
