Tiffany Kerns On Building Community Through Music
Tiffany Kerns, Executive Director of the CMA Foundation, joins Signature Required for a grounded conversation about music education, leadership, and the power of community partnership. As the philanthropic arm of the Country Music Association, the CMA Foundation works to expand access to music education for students across Tennessee and the nation.
Throughout the conversation, Tiffany shares how the foundation partners with schools, districts, and nonprofits to ensure students have meaningful opportunities to participate in music. From supporting teachers to addressing barriers to access, the work is rooted in a simple belief: when young people experience music education, it strengthens not only classrooms, but the communities around them.
About Tiffany Kerns
As Executive Director of the CMA Foundation, Tiffany Kerns brings a systems-minded, business-oriented approach to strengthening music education at scale. She leads the foundation’s strategic partnerships across Tennessee and the nation, helping ensure that students — regardless of background — have the opportunity to participate in meaningful music programs.
Under her leadership, the CMA Foundation has invested more than $33 million in music education over the past 15 years. Tiffany also champions educators through initiatives like Music Teachers of Excellence, an annual celebration that honors outstanding public school music teachers and highlights their critical role in shaping the next generation.
Music, Access & Opportunity
Across Tennessee, the CMA Foundation’s work extends beyond funding music programs — it strengthens communities. By partnering with school districts, educators, and nonprofit organizations statewide, the foundation helps create shared spaces where students and families connect through music. From rural counties to major metropolitan areas, these programs reinforce belonging and opportunity in places where access might otherwise be limited.
Through strategic investments and initiatives like Music Teachers of Excellence, the foundation elevates the role of educators and supports sustainable music programs across the state. The result is not just more instruments in classrooms, but stronger local networks built around creativity, collaboration, and a shared commitment to Tennessee’s next generation.
Resources
CMA Foundation
CMA Membership
Music Teachers of Excellence
Tennessee Music Education Association
Arts Ed Tennessee
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Spencer: Welcome to Signature Required. It is intended for Tennesseans by Tennesseans.
Tiffany Kerns, executive Director for the CMA Foundation. Welcome to Signature Required.
Tiffany: Thank you.
Spencer: So sometimes we start off and it's immediately obvious what someone does, and sometimes it's a little more tricky. So I think because we're in Tennessee, if people had to guess like, okay, CMA, I think I know what the CMA is, but I don't know that I have any understanding of a foundation.
So I wanna just start there. If someone doesn't know the CMA, help that Yes. And then let's hear about the foundation.
Tiffany: Great. So the Country Music Association, actually this is a, this is probably my favorite thing to talk about. Most people know us for CMA Fest. Yes. That four day music festival downtown that's taped for television when all the
Carli: locals like, try not to go anywhere near Broadway [00:01:00] because Yes,
Tiffany: yes.
That time,
Carli: yes.
Tiffany: That, um, we obviously, people know us for the CMA awards that happened in the fall. We also have a Christmas special. But we are a trade association. So think about, um, in any profession, you typically join an association that wakes up every day thinking about how they support you in the profession.
So the profession can continue to advance. That's what we do for country music. So we have members, we are a member trade association. Uh, so members paid dues. And then our job is to make sure that we are doing everything in our power to make sure country music thrives is consumed. Um, that we are doing research to understand where people are and what their consumption habits are, and the television properties allow us the opportunity to do that.
So it's allowing us to grow country music and that is ultimately what we aim to do. The foundation MythBuster. Has nothing to do with country music per se, in terms of curriculum or what we support. Country music [00:02:00] allows us the opportunity to have started a foundation that focuses on music ed. And we are not focused on any format or genre.
So we're. For us, it's making sure that we give opportunities to students to thrive through music, whatever music making looks like to them. And we do that locally in our state, but also nationally. And I love that country music made the decision 15 years ago to go all in on one simple cause, and I think it's because so many of our professionals and our artists, you know, got their break in music inside of the four walls of a classroom.
A church or a nonprofit. And so of course we should start this foundation that allows young people to continue to discover their creative muscle. And we could think Kick Brook kicks Brooks for that. He was on our board and his sister was a teacher and she kept calling and saying, can you please give me money?
Can you please give me instruments like any good [00:03:00] self-righteous sibling will do? And he said to the board. If we're in Music City and we're not supporting our local schools and making sure that they're finding this opportunity through music, what are we doing?
Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: And so CMA Fest allows us to do that.
We take a portion of proceeds from the festival because the artists are so generous with their time. And 2 million of that goes to the foundation every year to allow us to do our mission.
Carli: So you're helping kids get access to music education. You're not the one buying the recorders for my fourth grader, are you?
Tiffany: I try really hard to not be in the weeds that much, but what I would say is we're generalists. So we work with schools, we work with entire districts, so at Williamson County, uh, a Nashville Public School. And we're also working with nonprofits. For us, we just want, we're, we're generalists in the space.
I'm not a musician, I'm not a music teacher. I am a business person that is equipped to find solutions and so our entire team [00:04:00] works on trying to figure out why a student wouldn't have access and figure out how to fund, what is the solution to that? Is it funding? Is it scheduling? Is it lack of teachers?
Is what is it? And then how can we as an organization, use our resources, um, to help find the solution? Yeah.
Spencer: So just a couple questions on the CMA side before we go to the foundation. Yeah. So I don't think I ever connected that the CMA was a trade association, which is distinct from a union. Yes. And so can you just help explain some of that for me?
That. What does a member look like? Is a member, a person, an institution?
Tiffany: Such a good question.
Spencer: Yeah.
Tiffany: Such a good question. Every single member is a person, so we follow the individual because if you pour into the individual in theory we know the industry will benefit. So if someone in the industry says, I need mental health resources, we should be the ones doing everything in our power to [00:05:00] help them fund those things.
Mm-hmm. Members can look a lot of different ways. In our organization, we function a little bit different than what I would call our peer or adjacent organizations. If you are making your living in country music or a substantial spending, a substantial amount of time in country music, we want you to be a member of our organization.
So that could be a bus driver, it could be hair and makeup. It could be a publisher, a songwriter, an artist. Interesting, a musician. It could be a, a digital service provider, like a Spotify again, and individuals that work there. But for us, if you are pouring into the country music community, we want you to be a part of it.
Um, we do not want to be exclusive. We really wanna be inclusive. Hmm.
Spencer: And so it seems to beg a question of dealing with. A temptation to freeload off of everybody else. Right? So if I am a bus driver or I am an artist, and I see like, how many members do you all have? [00:06:00]
Tiffany: We're right about 8,000.
Spencer: Okay. So I would look at it and say, well, I'm kind of getting representation in a way I'm not required to be a part of it.
What's the value proposition that you make to say,
Tiffany: yeah,
Spencer: you do need to be a part of this? Other than
Tiffany: fantastic question.
Spencer: Yeah.
Tiffany: I, I think the biggest selling point, um, that our team, you know, goes out with is community. That is the one I, I think our genre is really unique in that, a, you won't find another genre that has a trade association fighting on its behalf advocating on its behalf wanting everyone to thrive and to be successful on its behalf.
And so I think when you say to someone we want you to first and foremost be a part of this community, when you are in community, you can also. Inflect change. Uh, so if you are seeing something that's not happening in a trend that's going in a certain direction, let's be in community and, and talk about it.
But I would say if I'm, if I'm [00:07:00] truly talking about benefits, there's the research component. The fact that we have an in-house research team that is pulling research to help our industry continue to advance forward, I think is a tremendous benefit.
Spencer: What's an example of something that might be researched?
Because I could come up with something. Yeah. And I know it would be like a terrible example of something that's being researched.
Tiffany: So it would, consumption behavior, I think is a really good one. Okay. How are people consuming media?
Spencer: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: Okay. You wanna make sure you're informing the industry. So that way they can make informed business decisions.
We're not telling any entity, organization, company, how to run their business, but we do wanna make sure we're giving them the tools to have educated, informed conversations about what the future looks like. So that's one consumption, uh, spending habits too. So, you know, how are people spending. At festivals.
Mm-hmm. How are people spending on media? Okay. Also things that we care about. And again, what's nice is we are informed by membership when it comes to research. So it's a, it's a dialogue that happens. Uh, we have an [00:08:00] amazing board of directors and we have a research committee, and so. They often will come to us and say, this is something that we see that's, you know, percolating through the industry and we need to figure out how we potentially solve for it.
And then our team is able to respond, which is really nice, and, and and then create research on behalf of that. Another benefit that a lot of our members take incredibly serious, which we love is voting for the CMA awards. Um, and I should also back up. We have 8,000 CMA members. That includes student.
It also includes non-voting members. So those are you know, folks that work in the music industry that aren't quite meeting the criteria to be. Country voters, uh, if you will, but they still see the value in being community because they live in Nashville or they know that at some point they're trying to get into country music, but maybe they work in a different format now.
Mm-hmm. Um, so we're trying to pull people along. But voting for the CMA awards, voting for a board of directors, voting for industry honors, [00:09:00] whatever it may be, voting tends to be a pretty big benefit as well.
Carli: I always wondered about that. Yeah. 'cause we watched the award show. Sure. We had the privilege of going one time.
We kind of sat in the nosebleeds, but it was awesome. And I've always wondered how they get on stage and it, this might be a silly question, but when you have your voting members, everyone has a different opinion. Right, of course. And everyone's kind of worked with everyone. That's what makes Nashville,
Tiffany: yeah.
Carli: Special. So from what you see, is it. A popularity contest. Is it these are the easiest people to work with? Is it, are they voting purely based on data Sure. Right. Of sales? Or does it all kind of come together? How does, what is the secret sauce?
Tiffany: I think here is the thing to remember is we're human. Yeah. So, yes, I think people are looking at information and trying to make really good, informed decisions.
But I also think that there is this level of appreciation. It's, it can be so subjective. Mm-hmm. Um. I think if you are in the business and you are working really hard on behalf of an artist and them chasing a dream, [00:10:00] you are going to show up with a bias and a perspective that a peer might not. So I'm sure that is reflected in how someone votes.
It doesn't surprise us at all when people who work within a community of an artist are all advocating for them to win an award. Sure. We're like, have at it. I think that is what makes it really special is you really do see. This desire for people to win, and I think we take a step back and we go stop thinking just about the fact that they could get this award on stage.
Start thinking about man, how wonderful that you are telling someone that you see them, that they're valued. Mm-hmm. That their work matters. That it, it means something and. I feel like when we talk to different mem all kinds of members, because again, they all have very different personalities.
They're humans. I do think we see this sheer love for wanting to support one another.
Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: And I've been at other [00:11:00] shows, I've been to other places, and I can tell you the way in which our community shows up for each other while competitive. Do not get me wrong.
Carli: Oh, sure.
Tiffany: It is different. It is different.
People are really rooting for each other. And I think that is very, very unique to our business.
Carli: Well, you see that when people are on tour?
Tiffany: Yes.
Carli: There's something, I mean, a lot of artists have friends come out, but there does seem like there's something in country music that is uniquely, your buddies are coming out.
I agree. And singing with you and traveling with you. And it makes it feel spontaneous.
Tiffany: Yes.
Carli: As if concert goer, you never know what kind of show you're gonna get. I, yeah, I've, country music concerts are my favorite thing, but that is great to
Tiffany: hear.
Carli: Yes. The thing you mentioned earlier too, is you are bringing people together to help them fight battles as a unit.
And I think country music has done such a good job mm-hmm. Of marketing that we don't see the battles. Yeah. As consumers. Yeah. I'm listening to the highway. Sure. I'm listening to Y two country. I'm buying tickets to see Lainey Wilson, but I don't see the behind the scenes because that's private. Yeah.
Right. [00:12:00] Yeah. To these artists. So you mentioned mental health, I'm sure there's other things. What are the battles that. You right now specifically find yourself fighting on behalf of this community or the organization as a whole?
Tiffany: Yeah, I mean, I think we are paying a lot of attention to a changing media landscape.
Carli: Sure.
Tiffany: You know, we, you look at attention spans, if I'm just speaking for myself you are looking at where people are going for media, you are looking at exhaustion. So I think that's something that we as a whole are trying to, really better understand not only where are we today, but where are we going.
Mm-hmm. And how can we inform the industry. So I would say that is definitely something that is top of mind, again, for us as an organization, but for our community as well. I, I think that. Mental health will continue to be something that our organization will pay attention to because, and, and I will say I have friends in so many other industries, and I, and they, and mental health is top of mind for pretty much anyone and everyone, [00:13:00] and there are variety of reasons for that.
But one of the unique pieces of. I think the music industry is that you experienced a really big high and then an immediate low within minutes.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: Constantly, consistently, daily. And so I think when you are experiencing that, by sheer nature of, of how we walk through life in our industry, it's starting to show up in anxiety.
It's starting to show up in relationships. And so I think what we wanna do is equip folks to be proactive with their mental health, to start to see those habits, to start to see, wait, this feels. This is the thing they've been talking about. Got it. Now, how do I put it in practice? And quite frankly, removing the stigma.
10 years ago we didn't have these conversations. We were having them in, you know, behind closed doors with certified therapists. And I think there is this other thing that's happening that is beautiful [00:14:00] is that there is this desire for community service. So. Hey, let's like get together and talk about it amongst friends or amongst peers versus feeling like it has to be so clinical.
Don't get me wrong, there is a need for clinical as well, but I think we're trying to let the industry feel equipped to talk about it out loud with one another versus feeling like it has to be a conversation that has, that happens behind closed doors. So I think that's something else that, um. We focus on, we're always gonna focus on burnout.
Mm-hmm. And just trying to support each other as humans. But it is that education piece. You know, I mentioned research, but there's all kinds of things. I mean, we host panels and discussions around topics that, we are constantly hearing people talk about. Mm-hmm. And so we'll try to pull people together, experts together.
We did one on ai. Again, it's like how can we facilitate the conversation and allow people to walk away with their own thoughts or feelings to be better informed to [00:15:00] make decisions. Hmm,
Spencer: maybe just a couple other X's and O's so that way I have a good understanding for CMA. So are you allowed to disclose what the dues or what the cost is?
Tiffany: They're a hundred dollars.
Spencer: Okay. A hundred dollars per
Tiffany: person.
Spencer: Per person. Per year. Per month. Per year? Yep. Per year. Okay. So not a significant I didn't, if you would've asked me to guess that number, I would've. You would?
Carli: There's a large like range. It could be.
Tiffany: We want it to be, I mean, we truly want you to be able.
To be a member. Mm-hmm. We do not want it to be exclusive. So, um, that is by design.
Spencer: Are there any contemporary organizations, like in other industries or anything that could be an analogy to say this group. Not as identical, but just something else that might be in the lexicon.
Tiffany: And, and music it. You could look at the Grammys.
They're focused on a creative member. They also have some non quote unquote creative members. Though I would argue being on the foundation side, everyone has. [00:16:00] Creative capacity. But I would also say so in the music ed, uh, for instance, you have a teacher's association, very similar. Okay. Uh, governor's Association.
Think about any association that you would join, you're paying, or I mean, break it down for sororities and fraternities. Like you pay a due dues to be a member and that organization. Truly does everything on, you know, on your behalf to give you tools to be successful in life and in work. We see them as going hand in hand if you, we don't just simply just say, okay, we have to focus on you at work. We have to focus on the whole person and make sure that our programming really lends itself to you being successful in life.
Spencer: Okay. And so the foundation is basically the charitable arm. You, it, of the CMA as a whole.
Tiffany: You got it.
Spencer: And so from a, from a business perspective, the, the dues for the CMAs.
It can't possibly be a significant part of the [00:17:00] revenue that's like you pay a due to have buy-in and say, sure, I'm part of this organization. That's right. Yep. And then that gives the kind of authenticity to be able to do all the other things.
Tiffany: You got it?
Spencer: Okay.
Tiffany: Yes.
Spencer: And so the foundation receives its funding.
Yeah, which is how much per year
Tiffany: a portion of funding from CMA Fest comes to the foundation at $2 million. Okay. Uh, we have an amazing team who also raises an additional amount of money because the need is that great, um, to be able to, to date. As of today, $33 million in 15 years. So substantial.
Spencer: Wow.
Wow. Okay. I have a better understanding now. I love it. I got it. It, thank you. That is really helpful. I've learned about trade associations. I know, I learned all kinds of stuff. Do you allow anyone to join CMA or do you have to be associated with the industry? Like, could I join or do I have to pass?
Tiffany: You would
Spencer: sometimes
Tiffany: you would wanna be in music uhhuh.
Um, mostly because the benefits that we offer. That's who it's going to benefit the [00:18:00] most, right? That's who is going to be able to take advantage of what is, um, being offered. But we have criteria at every level. That student tier is really aimed to be a funnel for future members and for future industry professionals.
And then our, our tier that is less focused on country music really is. Media music, Hey, I have this desire to be under the hood of CMA, but I don't necessarily need all of the benefits of quote unquote country music.
Spencer: I was just thinking if I could get a hundred people together and pay a hundred dollars, then I could like maybe swing the vote of the CMAs or something like that.
So that, that's where I was going on that.
Carli: The funniest part is, and. I love you. You know, I do. The man doesn't have a musical bone in his body. I, I do not love's a good song, can put together a great playlist, but it is not a trade association that you
Tiffany: should be. Guess what? You are a great fan. That's right.
Carli: Need
Tiffany: you.
Spencer: That's right. I appreciate this encouragement from both sides. Yes. Thank you.
Carli: So you're working to help kids not just know about country music, but to have music education. [00:19:00] That's it. Across the board, we just talked about mental health and the adults in the industry. Mm-hmm. But I think you've done a lot of research about the mental health of kids and why music education is is important.
Sure. And I'd love to talk about that a little bit, because as two people that really don't have musical bones, I have to say, I. I grew up with three stepbrothers that are so musically gifted.
Okay.
Carli: They can pick up. I have one brother that could literally pick up anything with strings and go for it.
They're drummers, they've been in bands their whole lives, and all I can remember is like my plate vibrating as the drums went under our kitchen and desperately wishing I had musical talent and I have zilch zero. So help me understand, for people like us that like. I wish I could do it. Sure. It's not my gifting.
The Lord did not see fit for that to be me. Why? Music education matters to my also tone deaf children.
Tiffany: Yes.
Yeah.
Tiffany: So what I, so I, I wanna make sure that I, I state this because I think it's important and you actually said it without knowing you or saying [00:20:00] it. You watching music making made you appreciate music.
And think about this, we are consumers of music. There isn't a moment in life that you go through where you don't lean on music in some capacity. So a wedding, a funeral, a graduation, name it, a breakup a frustrating day, you lean on music and if we can't imagine our lives without it. We should really make sure that our young people get exposure to it.
So I am the first to say we do not believe that every child that picks up any ki any kind of instrument is going to be an incredible musician. But that is not for us to decide. What we should do as adults is make sure that we give them. The ability to choose. And if they choose, Hey, you know what? Music is not my thing, that's okay.
But if they can see it and appreciate a peer doing it, that stays with them for life. [00:21:00] And so I think the, the reality is as we've watched music be fundamentally transformational for our students, we need critical thinkers. We need empathetic young people. We need them to be collaborative. Why? Because that's gonna help them in life and in the workplace.
By the way, as someone who is hiring folks constantly, I'm always like, man, did they play music? Because if they did, I know. The ability that they have, that a non-musical peer might not.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: So there is that.
Spencer: Could you say a little more on that? What, what abilities would they have?
Tiffany: Empathetic Empathy is one that is off the charts and it's because you are sitting next to your, first of all, you don't do music alone.
It's, it is something that you do in group. And so you start, it's a learned behavior to go, I'm gonna tap someone and go, you're doing great. Or by the way, one does not fail. That's all. So there is that lifting someone up and to learn that at a really young age, what it's like to [00:22:00] carry each other is so fundamental to I think, the development of our young people.
And it's also something that stays with you. So I think that there are those soft skills that we certainly see. Collaboration being another really big one. Again, nothing is done in isolation. Not one musician will tell you that they work in isolation. Even if at some point they decide to do a solo, they're still depending on others.
Mm-hmm. And then we could just talk academics. I, I, it's almost like I, I make sure that I have these talking parts of these tools for people that ask, because some people need to know that it does have academic success. That it does mean that they will, you know, outperform their peers academically.
So we could look at math, we could look at literacy. And I would tell you time and time again, they will outperform their peers especially in literacy. If you are learning how to read music, you are more inclined to read faster and you're more equipped. To read. [00:23:00] So it's a fundamental, I, I, I just wish people would understand that like, music will help shape your young person and everything else they do.
Every subject, but also every. Activity they do in life. And then there are, I can make the case music for music's sake. Exactly what I told you. We can't imagine our life without it. Let's make sure that we don't do that to our young people, our, our children. And then there is the social skills, like, don't you want empathetic, collaborative people?
So like you nev no one can ever argue with me that it is not worthwhile to make sure students have the opportunity to participate. And it's important to say, not just have the opportunity. You can't hand a child an instrument. And hope that they know what to do with it. Giving them access is half of the battle.
Allowing them the opportunity to participate means that you have a teacher in the room, it means you're guiding them. Mm-hmm. Um, so you need to have both. And we've make sure that anytime we're making an investment in a school and a nonprofit, whatever it is, that that [00:24:00] is happening full circle.
They're getting the access, but they're also getting the opportunity to excel and participate.
Spencer: That's really fascinating. Tiffany, I, Carly and I have looked at a lot of resumes and there's all kinds of things that we screen for
Tiffany: sure
Spencer: in hr, trying to find someone that has a fit. And I can honestly tell you if somebody had.
As a skill on their resume prior to this that they had performed in some musical capacity. Like, I couldn't read past that fast enough. Right. I, I just wouldn't, it wouldn't register for me. You're like, cool me to, yeah. It's like, okay, love
that for you.
Spencer: Great party trick for, I wish I could play instruments.
Uh, but at the end of the day, like, I'm not sure that's relevant for here. Sure. And so I'm moving on to the next part of the resume. Oh, no. But that's really, that's really insightful. Yes. To think about. The reading ability and all the things that you just kind of briefed us on. Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to talk to Melody after this to see if that's something that we take for Melody's, our head of hr.
Yeah.
Carli: Queen amongst [00:25:00] women.
Tiffany: Yeah. Again, it's, it is, uh. I think oftentimes when we talk to parents and we talk to community members and they're like, oh, music, it's cute. And it like gives us to do, and we're all really proud parents when we go to any kind of concert and I take that one step further and I go, but it's going to allow them to calm themselves when they're taking a test.
Mm-hmm.
Spencer: Yeah.
Tiffany: Because of think they've sat in front of an audience like you are equipping them to just walk through life better.
Spencer: Hmm. That's really outstanding. That's great. Okay, well that's something I'm gonna think on Tiffany. Okay. So talk through how you select. Where you're going to deploy resources.
Because again, my natural assumption in hearing the foundation arm for CMA is going to be obviously music focused. Yeah. But I don't know how, I'd have some paradigm to Sure. Think about how you would be a good steward Yeah. Of the resources. Yeah. Because I, I will say, and I'm not trying to [00:26:00] knock the industry, but like sometimes when I think of.
Music. Yeah. I don't always think of elite financial steward.
Tiffany: Totally fair.
Spencer: Yeah,
Tiffany: I understand that. You know, this is what I would say again, we're adjacent, right? I am so happy that I get to wear two hats and I get to be in the music business and, uh, work at the foundation and this nonprofit capacity.
I think that we learned early on, we don't have to pretend to know where we're going. Every day we should follow need, and we should follow research and information that tells us where to go. So. We look at a lot of data points. Where are we lacking music ed? Where and by the way, it's going to be everywhere because the need is always going to outpace funding.
We had a board meeting yesterday and I was sharing that with him and I said, I don't want that to I do not want that to overwhelm you. I want it to excite you. And that we we're gonna continue to do really great work anywhere and everywhere. We will always focus. [00:27:00] Here in Middle Tennessee because this is our backyard and we wanna make sure that our young people are taken care of, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, and we're music city. We will always focus on the state of Tennessee because music oozes out of every corner of the state. And it is not just country music. Uh, and we. Recognize that and quite frankly, most of the music being played in school is your concert band. Marching band. Orchestral.
Choral. Yes. Now they're starting to evolve and have some really cool genres that are, um, popping off, whether it be quote unquote popular music. Bluegrass is one that is starting to, we're starting to see, get some excitement around. We don't get in the way of that. We simply look at. Need. So what I will tell you is that it, there is need everywhere.
And so we try to focus on what, when you're looking at kind of our portfolio of investment, how much of it is money, how much of it is us just having a conversation with district leaders or nonprofits on [00:28:00] better, uh, manage. How much of it is and I'll give a really good example, scheduling where adults are kind of getting in the way of students.
How much of it is professional development or making sure teachers have what they need? So you have an amazing teacher. They're not really, they don't feel equipped to teach. A great example is I'm a teacher and most of my students are English, English language learners. I have 'em in my classroom, but I don't know that I know how to teach.
Okay, so what are the resources we need to provide to you? So you can do that, just that little. Resource right there. That investment right there will allow us to unlock an entire school potentially getting access. So it's not always going to be in the form of money. And the same way that we did a, um, research study two years ago called State of the Arts, where we went into school districts and said, what is preventing your students from getting access to music?
And the number one answer was not instruments, it was scheduling. Hmm. [00:29:00] So when you, when you have really, education is so complicated and it is so hard, but when you have scheduling systems that actually are preventative of your students taking part in things like music it doesn't matter if you have a teacher, it doesn't matter if you have the instruments, they're just sitting there not being utilized.
Right. And so we come in and try to help, um, work with. Uh, school districts on what it could look like if it changed. And we are mindful that every decision we make could have implications for another subject, and we wanna make sure that we're thinking through those things. Oftentimes that's what's happening.
People are making decisions and not thinking through the implications that it may typically have on subjects that are outside of what they can considered common core.
Carli: Yeah, you were talking a lot about teacher development and professional development, and that really resonates because everyone who I've met as a teacher isn't in it for the paycheck.
Tiffany: Nope.
Carli: You know, they're not in it like, this is an easy job, I'm gonna do this, and it takes a lot of [00:30:00] development to stay up on skills, classroom management, you name it.
Tiffany: Mm-hmm.
Carli: I wonder how much of what you guys are doing has an opportunity to be evergreen. This opportunity to offer training that if you can put together and produce training that you could use across the country for people that fit that niche, like English is second learners, teachers that have that in their classroom, could you develop training?
Is a lot of what you're doing developing that kind of work, or are you much more hands on to the person at this point?
Tiffany: So because we're generalists, we will typically find the trainer.
Carli: Interesting.
Tiffany: And then match them with the district or the teacher, or going to a conference where there's a ton of teachers.
So how do we scale it? In Tennessee, when we were learning through the state of the arts, uh, research project, when we were teachers were telling us exactly what they were struggling with. Well, then we went to the state music Teacher Association, which is the Tennessee Music Education Association.
And, uh, another group called Arts Ed Tennessee, again, statewide, they do a conference for [00:31:00] teachers every spring and we're like, can we bring in facilitators that can have this conversation? And now it's benefiting every teacher. So. Sometimes it's really, uh, it is really high touch and it's one individual, but oftentimes if one teacher is struggling with it, we're gonna see it show up in other places.
So we're gonna figure out how do we scale this? How do we make sure that we are, you know, we are thinking about, quite frankly, oftentimes boiling the ocean, uh, versus just that one individual. So we let it inform our work, um, and how we kind of move through it. I would also say that with professional development, oftentimes what is missed, and I could say this across any industry, often what is missed is just how do you lead as an individual.
What does leadership look like? How do I have courageous conversations? We find that our teachers, I mean, think about it. They are their quote unquote employees are are young people. Young people. By the way, if you are a middle school [00:32:00] teacher, you are my hero. That is a very weird time in any child's life.
Carli: Special crowns in heaven, right? For the middle school teachers?
Tiffany: Yes. Oh, anytime I meet a teacher and they're like, and I do middle school, I'm like. Okay. What, what can I give to you? Yes. What do I have that you can have?
Carli: How can I serve you?
Tiffany: Yes. But I, I think about that every young person has this, they all have different needs and I mean, I just can't imagine going to work every day where all your employees are standing in front of you going like, tell me what to do now.
And by the way, I'm over here looking at this and I'm over here looking at this. And I mean, it, it would be so difficult. And I think sometimes if we just. Acknowledge that our teachers are CEOs of their classroom and all of their kids are employees. We would, we would think about the profession a bit different versus like, well, our kids are there and how fun to be teaching.
It's like, but it's very difficult.
Carli: Oh, yeah.
Tiffany: And then add instruments into the mix,
Carli: just if it wasn't loud. Let's just throw some strings in there
Tiffany: and everyone on learn on different learning [00:33:00] abilities. Oh yeah. And I mean, teachers are incredible humans and I just think that we try really hard to make sure that we, when a teacher says like, oh no, I'm good.
I don't need any pd, I don't need any professional development that we go, what do you need?
Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: Stop, take teacher out of it. What do you need? What are you struggling with? And oftentimes it always comes back to the profession. Oh, it is the time management or, so we also take it one step further to go, and I think that's our trade association brain, because we're doing that for the music industry.
Mm-hmm. So how do we take elements of that to the music ed sector? That I feel like is lacking kind of some of that piece. So we kind of do everything. But again, that's why I say we're generalists because we don't go, oh, we just do this. We do whatever the need is. And that is the I, I think that is what brings me the most joy is because when you do that, people know you're showing up to provide solutions for them.
And not like, here's the [00:34:00] template, here's our model. This is everything we do. Okay, here's a $10,000 package for instruments, and then here's two PDs and, Hey, we're out. No, we're sitting down with the teacher and going, what does it look like? What do you wanna achieve? All right, let's build something. Um, so it's very unique in terms of how we serve.
Carli: There's a special amount of emotion that goes into music education first. Those educators have to be super comfortable with awkward, like all the time. I am not comfortable with awkward. When something is awkward, you don't want me in the room because I can't, I can't distill it. I'll laugh like I'm. I like am the one that will laugh at the worst moment.
Like it's, I'm got it. Not a good person.
Got it.
Carli: And so they have to be comfortable with this. Yes. And then learning an instrument is inherently scary. Mm-hmm. And it's not something you can do quietly. Mm-hmm. Like it's performative. Right. So it has to be loud. And terrible.
Mm-hmm.
Carli: For a season. Mm-hmm. And I think it's such a good metaphor for life.
So as you're working with these people that every day are [00:35:00] pouring themselves out to deal with the awkwardness mm-hmm. Nesses that we are glad that we mm-hmm. Don't have as our profession, it sounds like you have to be really creative. Yes. And if time is an issue
mm-hmm.
Carli: Gosh, that's sticky, right? Mm-hmm.
Because you have to be creative in something that feels really finite.
Yes.
Carli: So my understanding, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that you guys tell me about the Quest Center that maybe you were trying to use that to work into that space in a unique way that people don't know about.
Tiffany: Yeah. So I think that the Quest Center is a great example.
Um, an amazing organization that's out of Dixon that recognizes, it's okay to sup, be supplemental to what kids are also getting in school. So we never want anyone to come in and replace the teacher. We want them to be complimentary with to what's already happening. But the reality is, is that classrooms are large and when you have help in those classrooms, it can not only serve the students, but it also serves the teacher's mental health to be able to have more than one adult in the [00:36:00] room helping students thrive. The other thing that is nice about the Quest Center is that they are pushing to meet students where they are. So a student may say, the kind of music I wanna make isn't necessarily what I typically see inside of a school.
Hmm. And so the Quest Center is able to fill that gap and go. Music making is gonna look a little bit different. It's not going to be, I hate using the word traditional because I, I think tradition is a great thing and can mean really great things to people. But what I will say is our students are asking adults.
To give them more. And we have to hear that call and we need to provide for them. And so if it's not coral, if it's not orchestral, if it's not marching band, how do we make sure again, that we're giving them a manure suite of options? And when you look at someone like the Quest Center, they're saying, we have some uniqueness to our community.
We know that they're interested in different kinds of music. We're gonna step in and provide this service. I also love as a [00:37:00] nonprofit, anytime a nonprofit works hand in hand with the school district. I love it. It is very difficult to, to do, and I recognize that it cannot happen everywhere. It requires a lot of love and care and a lot of trust.
But when those things do happen. I think that is where magic happens because you're no longer, to me, you are, the sky is the limit. You are no longer saying it has to just look this way. You have community partners that will typically push to be a bit more innovative whereas education can sometimes feel a bit outdated.
And I say that with love. It is a massive undertaking and, and you need continuity across the country and across schools. In order for students to learn. I, I totally get that, but I think this emergence of the nonprofit sector coming in to help facilitate and be a part of it is a really wonderful thing.
And the, like I said, Quester is one of many great organizations that are doing that. We have notes for notes in our city. They're doing that. We have w Smith and [00:38:00] Nashville they're doing, I mean, there's so many y'all. So many.
Spencer: Hmm. If you just try to bring it to life through a story that would help someone catch the vision for the real impact that can be made, is there something that comes to mind, someone's life that has been touched, some story that would help really bring this to life?
Tiffany: Oh my gosh. How do I pick one? Uh, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm going to treat this a bit like a, um. A compilation, if you will. So we have a an annual event called Music Teachers of Excellence. And that event recognizes extraordinary music teachers. We honor 30 of them a year. It's the CMA awards, but for music teachers, it's incredible.
Spencer: That would be amazing. I'd like to be in that room. Be Yeah. Yeah. It's those people. It's amazing. So comfortable with awkward, just the best room ever. Yeah.
Tiffany: Amazing. And as part of their application, we ask them to story tell [00:39:00] why are you still in the profession? What are you seeing? And when I think of the stories that we've.
That we've read, that we've experienced with our teachers. I think about a teacher who saw a student with a disability who could not be in marching bands. So they created and invented, built, a device that would allow them to do that. Mm-hmm. I think about a student who was blind and a teacher learning braille so she could teach that student.
I think about a teacher that we just went to visit this week who called us last fall and said, I just moved schools. We had been longtime partners in his current school, moved to a different school, incredible teacher. I will follow him for the rest of his life if he'll let me. He said, I need instruments because I'm gonna start a program.
But these kids, Tiffany, they need it. They really need it. And we got to go in this week with, um, Russell Dickerson and surprise the kids with instruments [00:40:00] and watching them. They've now only been playing for six months, watching them get this confidence. I was watching this young woman and her posture was perfect and I kept telling my colleagues, I was like, she is going to be so good.
I could just tell the way the love and care. So I went up to her you know, after we did the surprise and I said, how long have you been playing? And she said, I just started playing. She goes, but I love it. Hmm. You have to remember that oftentimes music is the tool in which students see themselves for the first time.
Why would we not want to do everything in our power to let children experience that? So when they, you know, are blowing a horn or they're beating a drum, they're like, I'm doing something of value. And I am a person, and I think of every time I walk into a classroom, I'm looking for that student who is experiencing it in that moment.
So it happens every time. I've never walked into a classroom where I wasn't just moved. I've never met a teacher that [00:41:00] didn't have a story that I am just like, who, who by the way, that you casually mention these things, they're like, oh, an expert. I'm like, I'm sorry, what? I need you to tell me a little bit more about it.
So they don't even realize the, like heroes wear capes. They are, that they don't even understand that. They have this invisible cape that we all see constantly. Certainly at CMA in our office. And I'd like to say the music industry as a whole because we are telling the country music industry man, our music teachers are incredible and, and make sure that you are paying attention to them.
But, those are, those are the kinds of things we see every single day.
Spencer: Mm-hmm. It, it, this connects to a part of me, Tiffany, that I don't think a lot about. Like I just reflect on kind of past musical experiences for myself, and it is amazing how immediately fun mm-hmm it is, even if you're terrible mm-hmm.
At it. Mm-hmm. You know, you think about going to a museum and [00:42:00] there's those like xylophones, right? Oh yes. Where it's like you bang it with a hammer and, and it, it's incredible. Yes. Like it is 20 seconds of absolute pandemonium. But you know, every kid does it.
Tiffany: I know.
Spencer: And every kid can remember.
Tiffany: I know.
Spencer: Doing it.
And so
Tiffany: it's a, but also think about, you mentioned this. You, you both remember playing something that you were forced to likely play as a young person. Like I remember the recorder, hot, hot bun
Carli: all day. I could still do it. It's,
Tiffany: yeah, but guess what, when you did that, you were like, I am achieving something.
Carli: It's true.
Tiffany: I am achieving something. And I, I, it's funny because when I, I am the awful friend that gives all of my friends with children,
Carli: oh, no.
Tiffany: Instruments or you're the person. Yes, I am the person, but I say. Then just have them play it when I come over or like let me see them. Because when I tell you, it will give them a confidence that you don't even realize that they need like, that they want, [00:43:00] that they're craving and music gives that.
To them. So it's, it's interesting because I, look, I have gone to plenty of concerts where students are learning for the first time and you're like, okay, I hear a, yep. That's a, that's an interesting sound. Yeah,
Carli: that's not a note.
Tiffany: But the minute I take myself out of it and I go. But look at the confidence.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: That we're giving these kids. Look at the experience we're giving these kids like, this is why we do it.
Carli: You know what it it for my ear? It does really true. In our house, it's funny, we joke about being tone deaf and all the things, but one thing that was really transformative for me was musical theater couldn't sing.
So that's why I chose to be a villain that didn't have any singing parts. So I waited and waited to get the villain rolls where you had to sing. At least I love it. Singing terrible was the purpose. And that has really taken off with our girls. All three of our daughters have done musical theater, so whereas maybe not instruments in our house,
Tiffany: it's still musical,
Carli: still getting on stage and performing.
Has been a really [00:44:00] big boost, especially to our third daughter's confidence level
Tiffany: and, and everything I talked about in an instrument is the exact same. Think about they are used to seeing peers be scared to go out like you. That is where you develop empathy. Mm-hmm. Because you're like, oh, I'm also scared.
So when you look at someone, I find it's interesting, oftentimes people don't step out because they're afraid they're going to be made fun of or that. They're going to be seen in a way that they don't want to. Music almost to me, gives you the tools to go, like, it's actually okay that I'm really uncomfortable with this anxiety right now.
Mm-hmm. It's gonna move through me. Or I, I always say, man, I find that some of the best public speakers were musicians. And, and, or by the way, not great musicians, but. That they learned the ability to not be as afraid.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: Because of the show
Carli: must go on.
Tiffany: That's it.
Carli: Yeah.
Tiffany: So I, look, I compliment you all because making sure that they're experiencing something in the arts will serve them well.
But that empathy, watching someone else get out on [00:45:00] stage is something that they have developed that I don't even think you probably realized.
Carli: Hmm.
Tiffany: Little empathetic women, like how wonderful.
Carli: No, it's so true. And that it won't, might not always work out. We had a daughter, it was her first ever solo and she got middle Anna and frozen.
So she wasn't baby Anna. Yeah, she wasn't Big Anna. She was middle.
Tiffany: Okay.
Carli: And the poor kid got laryngitis and had no choice but to perform like a little froggy in her throat. And we, she cried through the rest of the show and then we got her home. And we sat her down and we're like, it's okay. I
love it.
Carli: But I think the power of her realizing like, sometimes this is gonna work out how I want.
Yeah. And sometimes the world isn't gonna see the effort I put into this. Yeah. But my people still love me. Yeah. That was a, that was re speaking of being comfortable with awkward. That was a really hard parenting moment. But I do think she grew a ton, of course. From that and she's, [00:46:00] you know, going out for a lead next year.
So
Tiffany: I never like to pit subjects because I think we need all subjects. We need people to be really good at math. We need them to be good in science. We need them to be good. But your daughter isn't gonna experience that in a math class.
Carli: It's so true.
Tiffany: And that's why I often say it's less about the subject and it's more about the experience.
Mm-hmm. We need, we need both. I don't believe one is more important than the other. We need both.
Carli: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany: Because of that right there. Mm-hmm. Because of that experience.
Mm-hmm.
Spencer: Tiffany, you've caught my imagination with the Music Teachers of Excellence and the awards and all of what is contained in that room.
Like, it's hard for me to tune into most award shows 'cause I just, it doesn't capture my imagination. Sure. But when I see. My colleague, when I see someone that has made a difference in my kid's life, like sure it's personal. Yeah. Then so tell me a little bit more about it. Yeah. 'cause I want to, I wanna learn more for how we can be involved.
So
Tiffany: first and foremost, [00:47:00] we honor 30 music teachers across the country. 15 of them will come from our state. Uh, so five come from Metro Nashville Public Schools 10 come from across our state. Many have been in Wilson, Sumner, Williamson County. So the county is obviously sur surrounding Nashville. And then 15 come from across the nation.
Anyone can nominate a public school teacher K through 12. If you go to our website music teachers of excellence.org, you will find a nomination page you literally put in very little information. Doesn't take a lot because the onus is actually on the teacher to complete an application. So the nomination just allows us to facilitate a conversation with the teacher to apply.
It's a two-step process for teachers. Uh, they do have to be a public school, public charter teachers K through 12. And they have to share a lot about them, and we're not looking for them to just tell us great stories. We're also asking them to let us in their classrooms and see them actually direct.
What does it [00:48:00] look like to be in the classroom with you? We have a anonymous group of adjudicators or judges that all have music ed backgrounds. Who then. Distill all of the applications down to 30. We announce those teachers, uh, during Teacher Appreciation week, which happens the first week in May, and then we celebrate them until the event happens in the fall.
The event looks like an actual award show, so we have. An artist sit with every single honoree. So that's 30 artists in the room. We have a red carpet. We typically do five to six performances from major recording artists. We have inspirational speakers. The goal of the program is for the teachers to walk taller, to be seen, to be valued.
Um, we invite their principals, we invite superintendents because we also want the communities in which they are in to feel the lift. Hmm. It is, it has changed the life of our teachers. We also [00:49:00] give them $5,000. So we give them $2,500, pretty much cash. Please go spend this on yourself. And the reason we have to do that is because otherwise they will spend all 5,000 on their classroom.
Yeah. And then we send $2,500 to their classroom. We have helped teachers purchase cars. We have helped, we helped a teacher leave the country for the first time you know, on a vacation like. We take for granted things that I think we do all the time because they are such, they are just the most thoughtful, philanthropic, generous humans on the planet.
And so when they come to us and they're like, I can't believe you do all of this for me. And I go, but why can't you believe it? Look at what you do for our communities. And they're like, yeah, I know, but, and I'm like, there is no but. Hmm. You are important. You are valued, you are seen, and we are excited to celebrate you.
Spencer: Hmm. Tiffany, this is amazing. And I just love to get to [00:50:00] spend time talking about a subject that I don't get to spend much time thinking about. And so the way that we land each podcast that we do is, uh, I have three short fill in the blank sentences.
Tiffany: Okay.
Spencer: With a blank at the end that you can finish with a word or a short phrase that you think completes the thought.
Uh, if you'll just repeat the prompt back to me. And then fill it in with what you think.
Tiffany: Great.
Spencer: Okay. All right, here we go. Number one, music education matters because blank
Tiffany: music education matters because it's transformational.
Spencer: Number two, great music programs begin with teachers who are blank.
Tiffany: Great music programs begin with teachers who love students. And number three, Tennessee's music Legacy [00:51:00] continues when Blank
tennessee's music legacy continues when we pri prioritize music education.
Spencer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's great. Tiffany, I get to do a lot of episodes with Carly, and you never know what you're gonna uncork in the time together. And for someone like me that just, Carly has said it, I think four times now that I don't have a musical bone in my body who's, nobody's
counting.
Spencer: Yeah. Um. I might just have us do 10 seconds of awkward silence to just like punish Carly here, and we'll just sit here in silence.
Will that be good?
I'll leave. I'll leave the room.
Spencer: Should just start laughing into the mic. I'll though.
Carli: Oh my gosh, I love it. Oh, so
Spencer: fun. But in any case, someone that doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about music, this has been a really eye-opening. Episode for me because some episodes really resonate with [00:52:00] truth.
Yeah. Like you just, you know it's true when you hear it. Yeah. And this is one of those moments where there's a lot of incredible organizations that do important stuff, but this is one that I could easily have imagined. Pushing to the side for me.
Sure.
Spencer: Because I just didn't have any context for the vision.
Yeah.
Spencer: But now that I hear about it, it really does connect in a way that it hasn't before. Yeah. And so I really thank you for that and for bringing, I really. Great blend between business, like you can speak that language. It's obvious you can answer a trade association or a union, like, you know those answers.
So you bring the business side of it, but you also bring the heart to it that you have to have Yeah. As the executive director over a foundation.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Spencer: So thank you for the time today. This was really fun.
Tiffany: No, thank you for having me and also for giving us an opportunity to [00:53:00] advocate for music ed. It means a lot.
Spencer: Tiffany Kerns, executive director for the CMA foundation, who knew that the CMA had a charitable arm? And that they actually do some really incredible stuff. I had no idea what to expect when I hear the CMA has a foundation. Like you can kind of think of some just classic, stereotypical stuff that could be done, but Tiffany brought it to life for me in a way that gave me.
Kind of a callback to that inner child of remembering what it was like to play an instrument. And even if you play it really poorly, which I did, it still means something. Mm-hmm. And it's a memory that I have, and I feel like it's kind of one of those like memories that [00:54:00] got unlocked that I haven't.
Bothered to access in a couple decades.
Carli: I know I was laughing with you before this. When we walk in here, we're prepared. We've been prepped, but you never know what you're gonna end up talking about and what you're gonna get, and especially when the topic is something. That isn't our initial heart language, right?
Like we aren't musical players. I feel this way every time we do something outdoorsy, right? Like it's not my gifting. What am I going to even ask? Will we have anything in common? And she made it so relatable and I really appreciated the research part of it because that was something that was really caught me.
Off guard. I didn't realize how much research they did to say, Hey, this helps with math. Hey, this helps with literacy, which is something we are documented as caring a lot about, but also develops those soft skills of empathy and teamwork. It just really rang true and I appreciated her bringing it to light.
Spencer: Something else I appreciated about Tiffany is it's [00:55:00] rare in. The foundation space that you get someone that has the heart that is necessary to do something nonprofit, but also has the business savvy. Mm-hmm. To be able to run the organization and communicate the vision in a way that allows it to be sustainable.
Mm-hmm.
Spencer: And she told us that they've done $33 million worth of. Community investment over 15 years. And that's significant. And it's exciting to get to see a leader like that in a place where she is really passionate.
Carli: Yeah, it was just a lot of fun, like I said, walking in, not knowing what to expect or would we even have rapport.
And then I found myself really bummed that it was ending so [00:56:00] soon.
