Jane Allen On Problem-Solving and Leadership
In this episode, Jane Allen, founder of Counsel on Call (now Legility) and former CEO of the Nashville Entrepreneur Center, shares her inspiring journey from schoolteacher to legal industry trailblazer. Jane discusses the leap of faith that led her to law school, the founding of a company that pioneered flexible work options for lawyers, and the lessons learned from scaling and ultimately exiting her business.
About Jane Allen
Jane Allen is a pioneering entrepreneur and visionary leader with a proven track record of transforming industries and scaling businesses. As the founder of Counsel on Call (now Legility) she redefined legal services, saving clients millions and earning the trust of Fortune 100 companies. As former CEO of the Nashville Entrepreneur Center (NEC), she’s launched initiatives like Project Fintech, strengthening Nashville’s entrepreneurial ecosystem.
Allen’s expertise spans law, technology, and business innovation, earning her numerous accolades, including EY Entrepreneur of the Year. Committed to community, Allen serves on the Harpeth Hall School board and is a sought-out national speaker advocating for entrepreneurship. Allen’s legacy is one of innovation, mentorship, and lasting impact on the industries and communities she serves.
Resources
-
Spencer 00:35
Allen, founder of counsel on call Legility, also the former CEO of the Entrepreneur Center. We are really thrilled to have you here today. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. YOUR Story, uniquely entrepreneurial, is one that Carli and I, in reading about you, hearing your story, the exits that you've had, we have a lot to cover today, so before we kick it off, maybe just tell us a little bit about your background and tell us who Jane Allen is.
Jane Allen 01:16
Jane Allen is a mother, a wife, and a person who always has asked why, and I've realized as I've gotten older, that might be one of my strengths versus my weaknesses, because it's sometimes in my life I thought it might be a weakness, and I started, I lived in Florida and was a school teacher, and thought, I can't believe my education's over, because the reality is I've really never studied in my life. And took the LSAT on a whim, and was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to the University of Kentucky law school.
Carli 01:58
We need to pause for a second you took the LSAT on a whim, like you studied a little bit. You studied a lot.
Jane Allen 02:06
No, I didn't. I was an elementary education major. I was a second grade school teacher, and one of my dear friends, who was brilliant, Missy Davis, always wanted to be a lawyer, and told me she was going to take the LSAT and I, my sister was a lawyer, and my sister was brilliant. And so I just always thought those were for the people that are really brilliant, not necessarily for me. And but she was like, come on, Jane, you should take it. And I'm like, Okay, tell me how I do this. And you have to understand, kids, this is long before the internet, okay? And so she was like, Okay, you can sign up, but it's late. So I called, I signed up, and I had about two weeks, and I went, and my sister had told me go buy a book. And I went and bought a book, and I just took practice tests in the book, and then I went and took the LSAT,
Carli 03:01
my goodness. I mean, this might feel like the line from Legally Blonde that one day, did you wake up and decide you want to go to law school? Like, you
Jane Allen 03:09
know, no, I don't think. I mean, not that as much as it was really more of an intellectual challenge, like, I just thought, I've really never challenged myself intellectually. And I I wanted to see, because what I loved about it is it's a yes or no. I mean, it's one of those decision trees that either you do well and you're gonna go or you do poorly, and no, that's not for you. And my like I said, my sister was a lawyer. People had said, Have you ever thought of going to law school? And quite honestly, I've worked since I was 15 and put myself through undergraduate. So going to grad school really wasn't in my future. I didn't think. And so when I took it, I was really thinking I would continue teaching and I would go to Stetson night law school if I was lucky enough to do well enough. So that was sort of my path, and then I did well,
Spencer 04:06
it's something I love about entrepreneurial moments that we can point to. And there's a moment where, either through reckless abandon, we went forward with something, or it's that leap of faith to where you've worked hard at something. I work with a lot of people that are considering entrepreneurship. And you know the Ready, aim, fire. It goes, Ready, aim, aim, aim, aim. And before they know what 30 years has passed by, there's always a reason not to do something now. It's like having kids, right? There's never a good time to have a kid. That's right. I want to be sleep deprived and blow up my whole financial situation. And, you know, yeah, just or more. Oh yeah, no kidding. So I hear an element of that in a pretty radical shift. I mean, you're a school teacher. Amber, and you said in your own words, you hadn't intellectually challenged yourself as much as you perhaps had wanted to at that point in time. So was there a moment where it could have been taken the LSAT, but it could have been any number of different radical actions, but was there a moment that you can recall that just said, not another minute, not another day? This is my moment, and I'm going to go do gonna go do it.
Jane Allen 05:23
I don't know that I ever got to that point. I think what I've always done is one, I'm a person of faith, and so I have always tried to pray and listen to someone other than my own voice, which is such a challenge and continues to be to be to this day, but it was also one of those where I would get to the point of and when I look at decision points in my life or pivot points, it's, if I don't do this, I'll regret it, and I've got to try. So even leaving teaching to go to law school, I just took a year's leave of absence. I mean, so I'm not such a radical risk taker. I always call I mean, I don't know if you all have been over to the park in Brentwood where the shaky stairs. And I'm always like, Yes, My son loves the shaky Yes, so did my children. But I always thought, I always made sure that stair I was leaving wasn't as shaky as a stair I was going to and so because I would it was, I could go back to teaching now, within a month of being in law school, I called and let my principal know I wouldn't be coming back. That I have found where I wanted to be, and so ever almost most of my choices is what I would call them. It's been more if I don't do this, I'll have regret. I've got to at least try. What's the worst? I fail. Okay,
Spencer 06:43
If that was a movie, it'd be a fun alternate ending. If it had, like, one day in second grade class where you had just had, they had it up to here with little gym, I've had enough parent teacher conference. I'm never coming back and I'm going to law school like that would be a fun alternate
Jane Allen 06:59
Would be, yes, it would, and it would be so much more exciting. But no, mine was. I love teaching, but I just thought, in five years, do I see myself doing this 10 years? And for me, personally, it was, I really don't. And but yet, the path of teacher, which was principal, administrator, I thought that really doesn't excite me either, and I think that's why my friend's like, Well, why don't you just take the LSAT?
Spencer 07:26
Okay, so moving forward in the story, we pass the LSAT, we go to law school. You're a lawyer. What type of law and what does that chapter look like?
Jane Allen 07:35
Well, another one. I was going back to Tampa. That was the always the plan, and then I had the good fortune of clerking for a federal judge, and he actually sat in Western Kentucky, and he was an old circuit rider, which meant we were in Louisville, Bowling Green, Owensboro and Paducah, and he was brilliant, and he was probably The most influential mentor other than my family, Ed Johnstone, Edward H Johnstone, and I just followed him there. And same thing, I asked for years break from taking my job in Tampa. And then after a few months, I called and let him know that I wouldn't be coming back to Tampa and and that just began my legal career. And then out of my clerkship, I had the opportunity to open a law firm for a firm that sat in Henderson and Louisville, and they wanted an office in Paducah, which is where my judge had made all of his clerks sit, even though we all knew we convinced him to let us live in Louisville, but then I actually fell in love with Paducah and and I opened an office for a law firm there, and that was really important in my career, because it taught me the business of the practice of law very early, and you know, and How you have to be able to balance everything and and so then I practiced law in Paducah, and then I met Greg, and he was from Paducah, but was moving to Nashville after graduate school, because he had gone to graduate school in Philadelphia and had chosen Nashville as the city he thought would explode in the 90s, and so he chose to come here.
Carli 09:23
Wow. I mean, that was pretty bright to know.
Jane Allen 09:27
He's very prophetic. He’s very smart, and he's very prophetic, and I'm very blessed.
Carli 09:43
How did you two meet?
Jane Allen 09:50
We met at a bar in Paducah called the twinkling star. And it's adorable. It was a Friday afternoon.
I played in a Wally ball League, and my partner and I had won it, and on a Friday afternoon, they were having the celebratory at. Event, and usually I worked out every day after work. I was pretty, some might say, obsessed, and so, but they're like, come on, Jane, you've got to come to this party. And so I did, and I got there early, and Greg was there with another gentleman that I had met, named Bill Morris. And so Bill introduced us, and the rest is history. The rest is history.
Spencer 10:23
I appreciate in your story, too, the business aspect that comes from opening that firm there that I have worked with some of the smartest doctors, lawyers, individuals that are masters of their craft, but as soon as you introduce a profit and loss statement to their universe. They're just novice and have absolutely no concept of it, which is always amazing that I could never in a million years do the types of things that they're doing at their level. But that really helps complete part of any entrepreneur. If you don't know your numbers, you don't have a chance. And I think that's a a point that I see in the evolution going through, is that you're clearly brilliant gone through, but that that business experience to then ultimately go towards launching your own thing. When did that happen in the story?
Jane Allen 11:19
Flash forward, Greg and I, Mary, I moved to Nashville. I had, again, the good fortune of working with Doramus & Troger was the name of the law firm, and it was Jim Doramus and Byron Troger, and they were brilliant lawyers, and another partner named Paul Nye. And it was a small boutique mostly, what I did was litigation, and primarily federal court litigation and then I got pregnant with our first child, and you know, I was going to be that gung ho lawyer, put the baby on my back, put the pack and play in the office, and here we are. And I don't know if it was hormones, I don't know what, but something took over my body, and it was, Oh no, I'm going to have a conflict one day, because as a lawyer, the client has to come first, and as a mother, my child has to come first. And I could just picture the day that my child would be in a hospital and I would have to be taking calls or going to, you know, a hearing. And I just thought, I don't ever want to be in that position. And really started questioning what my future would be. And went to the guys and told them that I went in the lawyer that they had thought they had hired and that I was going to back out. And I had some lawyers in Kentucky that had called and asked me to do ghost writing for them and so I was very fortunate, because Jim and Byron and Paul, I suppose, just said, you know, you always come up with creative solutions for our clients. Why don't you come up with a creative solution that'll work for you and for us and our clients?
Spencer 13:08
Wow, yeah. What an endorsement for you.
Jane Allen 13:11
Well, what amazing men. The three of them were and are to this day.
Carli 13:16
I can so relate to what you're saying, because when we started our business, gosh, it was in 2013 right? So Zoe was born in 310, 11, and 2011 I always say their birthdays in order. And then Piper was born in 2012 and we started our business in 2013 and then we got pregnant with our daughter, Daphne. So we're working our butts off, and we're about to have three toddlers at home. At some point, we had people working out of our home, which is another story for another time, but that instinct that hits you, because when you think you're scrappy, and you're gonna go all in and you're gonna work this work, and everything comes for the work, right? Like sacrifice anything, and then all of a sudden you have this life in your arms that you're willing to die for, and it's like, I really love him, but all of a sudden we have this. And this is the stuff, you know. It changes your complete paradigm. It changes the chemistry in your very soul
Jane Allen 14:18
And I would say, even having him, which is my Greg, we were aligned. I mean, we're both go getters. We know where we're going, you know. So it was just a and I felt badly for him, because even I felt, Oh, am I the person you marry? Oh, you know. I mean, am I doing a bait and switch? And so it was just, it's a whole different because, you know, it is, but no one could have predicted it. No one, I mean, and even if my mother had tried, yeah, right, you know, I just didn't anticipate it. But yes, you're absolutely right. And we had the same when we started Council on call our third born son. I. Was nine months old. We had three boys in three years.
Carli 15:04
So tell me about Council on call. Was that your creative solution to it was the paradigm shift.
Jane Allen 15:09
It was because, basically, I ended up again. I cannot speak highly enough of these men that I had the good fortune of being mentored by and work with and learn from. And they just said, I don't want you to make any decisions till after the baby's born, and then take the time with the baby and and then come back to us. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I went back, and I said, What if I make you all look really good. I'll write for you. I'll get everything you need, but I'll be behind the scenes, and nobody will even know who I am, you know. And I always laughed, and I said, you know, you spend so long wanting to be the relevant to be. I never really wanted to be the lead, but you know, you want to be there, and you want the client to rely on you, and you want the client calling you and all sudden it's like, Ooh, I just don't want the client even to know who I am. I just want to be behind the scenes making you all look good, and you pay me when I work, and if I'm not working, I don't get paid. And then that way, if I'm working, it's billable, and so you're not out money. I mean, I understood the dynamics of the firm enough to understand you're giving me an office. I've got an overhead expense here, so I don't want my billable rate, you know. You know, I was just simple, it's a third, a third, a third. Give me a third of what I bill when I'm doing billable work. And if I'm not doing billable work, I don't, I don't make any money. But I also don't want to be here not doing billable work, you know.
Spencer 16:39
And for those not familiar, can you definitionally explain ghost writing? So that way people understand that better, for sure legal context,
Jane Allen 16:46
It's I think having clerked, I my judge had really worked with me, and I've been on Law Review, and so I think I had, I had been trained to be a decent writer for the legal profession, and so a lot of times, you may have a brilliant lawyer who can get up and argue and is fabulous in front of a jury, but then they might have somebody else that does their writing for them, and that might be an associate, or it might be someone you know, and then you always give it to that partner, and the partner will review it and make some changes, but ghost writing is I'm behind you. I'll write it. I'll get it in pretty much a final form. All you really need to do is look at it, and which is what I did as a federal clerk. You write for the judge, and then the judge makes changes, and then you debate why, and you walk through everything. But then ultimately, I would write it and then give it to the judge, and the judge would edit it and make sure it was his voice that was being heard.
Carli 17:47
I want to pick up on something you said, because I think it's quite profound, but we as women don't often talk about it. It takes humility to be willing to not be the person in front and something Spence, and I experienced a lot, because we work together so much, and people are like, Well, why is he on stage more than you? Or why is his name on something that your name's not on? And it always jars me, because I'm like, I never really thought about it. I consider his name my name. Like, I don't see us as two separate people. I see us as enmeshed. When he does good work, I know it's because I have put in the effort behind him, right? And I think there's this subtle shift, and I hear it a lot from women, because I too, I do understand that, like we need to support women in business, and that there is often a harder road ahead sometimes. But I also see this power and saying, I love being number one to the No, I love being number one. Number one. I like being the number one. Number two is how I put it, and it suits me, because then when my kid needs something, I can say, You know what, this meeting we have this week. If y'all really need me, let's talk about it. But I'm going to Mother Son dodgeball because I'm not missing dressing in neon, embarrassing my five year old with how I know how to throw it exactly. I really love how you articulated that, because I don't think it's less powerful. I think it is creative and showing a humble spirit that I don't care whose name is on it. I know the work speaks for itself.
Jane Allen 19:26
No, and I think that's true. And then when we flash forward and our story, Greg and I, you know, with counsel on call, it's my company, everyone thought, but it's our company, and I think, and I agree with you, but I admire him, because I think that takes real strength to let me be the face, me be the name. But yet he. It's a little bit what you said the numbers. We are an amazing team, because he knows how to make money out of dirt. And honestly, I really did. I didn't really care about money. I cared about changing the profession for the better, and then he could take these crazy visions and ideas and keep it real on margin, on we've got to make sure we grow every year by X percent, and we've got it, and it's like, yeah, I just want to make sure these lawyers have an ability to practice in a way that didn't exist before. And so, I mean, it was really a powerful team, and I think so many entrepreneurs, especially from my experience at the Entrepreneur Center, a mistake I see is they go in business with their best friend who is a mirror image of themselves. And it's like, I think really having a yin and a yang and maybe your heart is the same is maybe a better but to answer your question, I agree, humility, strength, all of that. And I do, I think it takes a really unique, strong person to be able to be in that role.
Carli 21:08
So tell us what Council on call is for people like we've gotten to read about it and learn about it, but for people that may not know, yes.
Jane Allen 21:15
So I mean, basically, I'm practicing law in this way, and Greg said, You know what, Jane, I think you're on to the future that practice a law and of course, being a lawyer and arrogant, not humble, I'm like, Oh yeah, you wouldn't understand, you're not a lawyer. And he was like, I might not be, but I know business. And the reality is, every other profession has done it. It's only a matter of time till it comes to the legal profession, and he knows how to poke because then that got the brain stirring. And so I started researching, and I would always say, researching every reason not to do it, not to leave that very nice stare that I was on and and thought, you know, he's right. But I remember saying, you know, Greg, this is easy, all you have to do. And he just laughed. He was like, you don't realize what you're doing, and you don't realize your own abilities. And I don't think it's that easy for a lot of people. And again, it got me thinking. So I went back to my judge, and my judge had loaned me out to a couple other judges when you know their clerks would be sick or something. And so I went and said, All right, I've got this crazy idea, like, what about former federal law clerks that could do research in writing they don't want to be a partner in a law firm. And the reality is, the business of the law is such that in order to be a partner, you've got to be able to bring in X amount of business. There are a lot of great lawyers that just can't bring in a lot of business, but then our profession is going to tell them they don't have a place, because it's up and out. And so what if we actually had people and we used the skill sets they had and we were able to bring that to the profession? And they're like, oh, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. And then my judge is like, yes, that's partner on call. And I'm like, Well, Judge, it's not really partner level always. And he was like, Well, okay, but call it what it is. It's Council on call. So my judge actually named the company. Wow, fun. And then I talked to another gentleman in Paducah who I really respected a lot, and I had ghost rip for him, and that he does the he did the Kentucky Trial Lawyers handbook, and then at night and on weekends, I would do research and writing for him. And so he knew me very well, and I knew him very well, and his name is Tom Osborne, and I went to Tom, and I'm like, Okay, I've got this idea Tom tell me I'm crazy. And he sat there and he said, not only do I not think you're crazy, I think the only limitation I see is you. And I'm like, Oh, great. And I said, Oh, he's like, you get bored so fast. And if you start this train, you've got to see it through. And if you see it through, you will change the profession for the better, and you'll change it for a lot of people. And I was like, oh, yeah, sure, okay, but does that mean I should do it? And he was like, yes, you should do it. And I was like, okay, so it was sort of with all of that, that council on call was started, I knew five women in Nashville that really didn't feel they could practice law anymore because children and I thought, oh, but you worked so hard in law school, and you worked at these great firms and had fabulous training. Sure you can. And so my goal was, well, if I can get these five women jobs and then I'm successful. Yes, I'm such a radical. That was my goal at, you know, and then Greg thankfully saw, Oh, wow, oh no, there's so much more. And so it really was. Now, the irony is, the first lawyer that worked with me was a man and his wife was Assistant General Counsel of a global company and traveled all the time. And he just said, If I don't change from the big firm, I'll never see her, and if I never see her, our marriage is going to fail. And so I've got to have more flexibility in my career. And so my first client was a small or, you know, a smaller firm, a gentleman named Lee Corbett in Nashville. And Justin worked for Lee, and worked with him for several years and and that sort of began Council on call.
Spencer 25:27
Wow, that's a great story. I I see so many themes through there that are consistent across my own entrepreneurial experience. Is that a lot of people when they think to become an entrepreneur, are in search of a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist, and that's exactly backwards, knowing the pain point of your customer is really the one that generally has the best chance at being able to solve for it. And you acutely felt that, I mean, you understood that my whole career, my paradigm as a human is at stake here. And I know I'm not the only one, and I also really like that the spirit of your business began in the addition of value and serving others. Clearly, businesses have to make money, and that message sometimes gets lost where people say, Oh, don't do it for the money. It's got to have a margin. And you were clear to say that Greg made sure that that margin was there, but it began in saying, How can I add value to others, and I just want to have a portion of that value. And you talked about the ratios that are there, and I think that's so smart. And I see some of my own story in that, and it makes total sense that we'll get to in a minute. Why you were CEO of the Entrepreneur Center is going all the way back to the beginning for people to say, All right, let me help you through some of the 101, and the basics of starting a company.
Jane Allen 27:16
I mean, I think, like when we did this, entrepreneur wasn't really a word that was used. I mean, it was and Greg really pushed me, and he was like, What's the worst thing that can happen? You practice law and you enjoy practicing law, so you've got to try. And then I remember when I went to talk to Byron and to tell him I was leaving, which was probably one of the hardest conversations. I mean, mind you, they have just allowed me to have three maternity or, you know, thieves. And I went and I said, I have to talk with you. And he said, You're pregnant. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. And I said, but there is a seed inside of me, and I keep putting dirt on that seed, and it keeps growing. And if I don't try this, I am going to regret it the rest of my life. And I very well might fail, but I've got to try. And he was like, hmm, I might have wish you were pregnant. He was like, but no, yeah, you do. And if it doesn't work, you'll always have a home. And so again, that stare wasn't so shaky when I tried. Now, I was also trying to do it for those hiring lawyers. So it was a lawyer to lawyer business, because as a lawyer who then is trying to figure out how to staff a case, it was you have peaks. And we were in a, you know, a smaller firm, and so you don't have 100 associates to throw at it, which is a good thing, in my humble opinion. And so it was yes, but I don't know that I need to go hire a lawyer. And if I hire a lawyer, I've got to have X number of billable hours guaranteed to make the money work for the firm because I had practice. I had done that in my earlier my life, but I knew these amazing lawyers that were home and thought, Well, why can't I just get Maria to do research and writing for me, or write a hand or draft a handbook or and so it really was for a firm to be able to have a win, as well as the lawyer to have a win, win. And so the need I saw on both sides when I originally started it,
Spencer 29:30
And you ultimately exit to private equity, right? I mean, I big deal, and you make it a handful of years, it sounds like in the private equity world, which I know very, very few entrepreneurs that look back on a private equity exit and say those were the days, those were really good moments. Those are usually some of the very, very hardest transitions. So maybe just in a handful of words, what was that private equity exit like for you in. And the monetization of the dream that you had built.
Jane Allen 30:04
You know, it's funny. As a lawyer, I had seen companies get into litigation when the founder stayed on too long, and I saw the founder almost become the chokehold because they had a vision, and they it was their baby and it was and yet the company had outgrown the founder, and so the money people are coming in saying it's time for that person to exit, and we need to bring in someone else. So I always had that in the back of my mind. I don't want to be that person, even though I'm sure you all know. I mean, I always said I have five children, and the whiniest child was the company without question. Thankfully, I have four amazing and still have four amazing children. So I think that for us, it was something a lot of prayer and tears went into that decision. And, you know, and so for us, and I don't mean to be callous, and Greg and I would have different answers here, okay, I didn't do it for the money. I did it because I felt the company had a chance to be global, and I didn't think that we had the infrastructure to allow or the expertise to allow that to happen. And then I felt our marriage was too important, because as a company, kept growing, decisions became bigger, even though, let's face it, when your house is on the line, the decisions are huge, but you're in it together. And it really I mean, but as you keep growing, the decisions got bigger and our disagreements got wider. And I thought at the end of the day, the marriage is the most important thing and our relationship is the most important thing. And I don't think I'm necessarily the leader to, you know, productize and scale, which is what is needed. I'm a problem solver. And, on the other hand, for poor Greg, it's just getting fun, you know? I mean, that's where the fun comes in from, the operation and the money and that, again, the scaling and but for me, it was time. And so now he would also say it was also time to get a lot of the chips off the table, and it was time to monetize all of this hard sweat and employees also we're going to reap the benefits of believing in this dream and this crazy people or person and our husband, and then believing in the two of us. So I mean, it was a wonderful experience for me and for us. It was, I do speak highly of private equity, I really do, and I think we chose the perfect partner for us. And you know, for me, it was just another learning opportunity. And a part of me was a little sad, because I was learning so much. So the light bulbs kept going as a baby. It felt like a child so, well, I mean, yes and no, it was. These guys were brilliant, and they were smart, and they were giving me time every day to help me grow. And so I felt like I was going to get an MBA by. But, you know, I'm saying like, because, you know, when the when gridiron came in, they assigned a gentleman named, well, houseberg to us. I don't know what all this is, you know, I'm just trying to help lawyers be able to hire and practice and bring the business principles into the practice. Because by this time, you have to understand, our company had gone from it's all about the people. And it was to, oh my gosh, we have this explosion of data. And so we're out there looking for the best technology. Well, when you bring technology and people, we have to have process. So we're creating process. Well, if you have process, you have to have project management, and so we created that. And then all we have to have, I want visibility into the data. I've got to create databases, because you have repeatable processes. And so why are we paying lawyers to keep doing the same thing all the time? So, I mean, it really was this, you know, the entire thing, it's just a continual I would say, we merge business and legal, and we made legal more agile, which became the name agility, because, again, the people are really key. And I knew we have people, and I knew we had a less than 3% attrition rate. My lawyers didn't go anywhere else if we and so you had lawyers assigned to a client. Yeah, and then you bring in the technology and the process, and ended the dashboard, and all of a sudden, the outside counsel can see the dashboard in live time, as well as the in house counsel and our team leads. So it was fun. I mean, it was so fun, but at the same time to be able to take it and scale it to the level it needed, sure.
Carli 35:25
So for context for our listeners, you started with you shared the story of one gentleman. He was your first hire, per se. How big was counsel on call before you sold out to private equity?
Jane Allen 35:36
We had 1000s of lawyers throughout the US in Europe and parts of Europe,
Spencer 35:43
It really did catch the right trends. Of, it's a little bit telemedicine, right, a little bit of that wave that was going on. It also has this kind of subscription based service type component to it. Of, you get as much as you need, but you don't have to do more than that, and kind of a little bit of Legal Zoom, like, like, all these different things together that you caught the intersection of a couple broader trends that for another episode, you know, I'm eager to ask you questions about AI and the impact upon the legal industry, because I feel like law is amongst the top three industries most likely to be disrupted by AI. But I do not have time to do that now. Oh
Jane Allen 36:36
Yes, I do, probably not for today. But yes, no, I do, and I do think it's unique. The profession is unique. And so I would, I would leave you with that one on that subject, it is unique, but I don't disagree. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that what we did, even when COVID hit, I called Richard stout and and Richard has been with me for years. He started as my lawyer, one of my lawyers, and and he just a divine soul and a brilliant lawyer and just a good human being. And I called Richard and I said, Remember the white paper we did about remote workforce 15 years ago? You might want to dust that off and publish it. I mean, because we were, I mean, because how do you cut overhead? Well, you you don't have all the lawyer sitting in class A real estate downtown. We can house them elsewhere, and we can put in security measures. And we were doing some print security. I mean, all of this was being done with us, 2010 2012 I mean, so we were definitely sort of ahead of the curve on a lot of things.
Spencer 37:46
So then to kind of bring it full circle, as CEO of Entrepreneur Center for the time that you were, you're back to being a teacher and teaching second grade equivalent entrepreneurs, I feel like of how to do the journey. So walk us through how that transition happened. Taking over after Dr burcha is no small feat. Those are huge shoes to have to fill.
Jane Allen 38:13
Yes, well, two fold. One is with Gridiron. My whole song, you know, when we went through the whole deal is we need a new CEO. We need a CEO that's global experience, scale, productization, etc, etc, etc. And they hired a gentleman named Barry dark, and Barry was fabulous. And so it became really clear Barry really didn't need me, which is wonderful, and that's what you want for. That's what you want. And so, you know, I would say I was out in the wilderness, and just trying to figure out, you know, am I done? Which, you know, if that's, if that's what your call is, that's fine, or what am I supposed to do? And I received a call about the Entrepreneur Center, and there had been two other leaders after Michael Burcha, okay, okay. And so, and I really didn't know a lot about the Entrepreneur Center. I knew I had donated money to it, because the reality is, Greg and I both talked to a lot of people in this town. When we started the company, I didn't know they were entrepreneurs. I just knew they were successful people who had businesses, and I just wanted to pick their brain. And every single one of them gave me their time. And so for me, donating mine to the Entrepreneur Center was a way to pay it forward. So when they called about stepping in, my answer was, well, what does success look like? Because I think that would determine what the leader should look like. And then I went and met with the group, and it was a little gray. That's what I like, you know. And so it was like, well, and so, and then, like, you know, gray.
Spencer 39:45
Like, what? What determined success was gray. Okay, so you can make it your own?
Jane Allen 39:50
Well a little bit, yeah. I mean, if they would have said, Oh, well, we want to get to here, and we need somebody to get us from here to here, and this is what you're going to do. To do that, that's great, but that's not me. E that's an executor.
Carli 40:01
You like to have fun and find the problem and to solve the Rubik's cube that you can tell and so and so.
Jane Allen 40:07
That's why, you know, I thought about it, prayed about it, talked about it. And I do think the sort of aha moment for me was I had my latent life bonus child. I had three boys in three years, five years later, my latent life bonus child was a little girl. And so Elizabeth, you know, I had traveled a lot of her childhood, so all of this work life balance, she was probably not the benefit of to be very candid and and so I really wanted to be able to be available for her and be present much more so in her life than maybe I had been in parts of it. And so, you know, I'm picking her up from school. I'm taking her to school. You know, I'm doing all the things that I always wanted to do. And I told her that I had met with these people in the Entrepreneur Center, and blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah blah, and so I'm picking her up one day on a Friday afternoon, and, and I said, Hey, I got an offer to come in and run the Entrepreneur Center. And she's like, Okay. And, you know, typical 1314, year old, okay, you know, looking out the window and, and finally she turned she was like, what is that? And so I explained, you know, it's for people who are starting businesses, blah, blah, blah. And so she sat there, and then she said, you know, Mom, I love having you in my life. I love knowing I can call any moment of any day and you can take care of whatever I want. And I said, I know, baby. And she said, but I would be really selfish. Mom, you're called to do this. You've got to do it.
Carli 41:51
Wow. And that was it. I have goosebumps up and down on that one.
Jane Allen 41:56
And that was it. And so, and, you know? And of course, it was a lot more manageable. I went and having to travel and so yeah, and so you come in. And so the before I said yes to the job offer, I went and talked to Dr. Burcha. I went and talked to Michael, and what was Michael's vision when he started it? Because Michael was the entrepreneur of the Entrepreneur Center, and I respect him so much and what he built, and the facility and so again, I went and talked to him, and he had not been really involved much for a few years, and I wanted him back on my board if I were going to do it. And I went and talked to Bobby Frist and Michael Schmerling. I mean, they were all there in the beginning and so and then I went back and read the original documents. What was the purpose of this place? This purpose was for successful entrepreneurs to give time and money, successful entrepreneurs and business people to give time and money to help the next generation, so that we were going to build a community of entrepreneurs through giving back and paying it forward. And then they too. So it was a giving circle in a different way. And then the other was to tell the story of the Nashville entrepreneur. And so that that was really sort of all right, I'm going to go back to the basics. And those are the two. You know, that's the vision. And so why do we need to change it? I mean, it was a great vision. And so, yeah, so it was really going back to the basics. And then I had my first board meeting. I was, I was hired October the 19th, was my first day around that time. And then I had my first board meeting. What first week in February, you know, last January and and so I had said, in that time period, I will meet with as many people as possible. So 90 days, met with over 200 people. Wow. The founders who had come through, the people that invested money, the people who had gotten ticked off and left like good, bad and ugly, poured in. And then let me just digest all this information and and talk to some really smart people as I'm digesting and processing, and I'll come out with a vision. And that's what we did. And so we had a vision, and we created the life cycle of the entrepreneur. And so, because my whole point is, how do you know where you play if you don't know what stage you're in? And so it was, you know, the startup stage, the startup stage, the EO stage, the YPO stage and the exit stage. I mean, that's, you're an entrepreneur, so you understand that. But then we put dollar figures somewhat on it, and that sort of became that. And then where do our programs fit in? So then you could articulate it, and so everything's going swimmingly. And then COVID hits in March. And so it was just a whole different Oh, wow. All right, here we go. Now that really gets fun, because, no, I mean, real creative, yeah, well, I mean, you had the tornados, and so we had a lot of people who had lost their businesses. And so, I mean, a real question for an Entrepreneur Center, are you there for. Small Businesses. Are you there for businesses are going to grow in scale? All right, isn't that always sort of the question, and how do you really know? I mean, I was a small business. I wanted to help five women, but if somebody had put me in the Small Business camp, and, oh yeah, we don't have resources for you, then if I didn't have Greg, what I've ever grown in scale, you know? I mean, so it's but that was always one of the questions, and so, but then the tornado hit, and we have businesses that had lost everything, and so we went and we set up tables, and we had the internet. We had power come over, you need to pay bills. You need to pay employees. And then when COVID hit, we were shut down, like everybody else in Nashville for 30 days. But then the mayor, we were in a central business, basically, and so we were open after that. And so we were open the entire time. And, you know, because entrepreneurship can also be lonely, and it's like they got to be around people and get the creative. And then with that, it was, you see people doing iPod videos. Oh, what are you doing? Well, I've got to, you know, send this to my investors. Well, so then I went to ours and said, guys, we've got to have a broadcast studio. We've got to have technology and people. We've got to be able to allow people to be professional and do real video, to be able to communicate with their board or their investors. And then we are also going to do podcasts, because we want to bring in people like Governor Brodesz or Dan Crockett or Courtney Harrington or other people that really did blow up as entrepreneurs in this city, and capture their story. So it's in an archive library that will never die. So if 50 years they want to understand what it was like, we've got these people's stories. So that's what we did. And we called that circle back, which was circling back for people to be able to share their story. And we did it in a narrative format versus life.
Spencer 46:58
That last part captures on one of the personal dreams that I have for Nashville and for Tennessee in general, is Tennessee has such a unique entrepreneurial history. We have some incredible stories that there should be a Smithsonian quality museum to entrepreneurship that is here in Tennessee. I mean, it would be an amazing tourist attraction. It could be sponsored by any number of the different phenomenal entrepreneurial stories that we have here in Tennessee. But it just really made me think of that, because to understand any entrepreneurs journey, there's a story, and capturing that, especially if it's in their own voice is a really powerful moment. I mean, just getting to hear you tell your story, your voice, it is different than hearing it in some other way, or reading it just brings it to life in an especially,
Jane Allen 47:52
It really, I mean, again, Greg, it was him. I mean, you know, he was like, you know, why don't you do a podcast? Because I'm like, yeah, we've got to capture these stories. And I want to, I want to, you know, I mean, you had Dr. Frist, and now I didn't get his story, but I went and asked, but I'm like, you've got people, and we want to capture it. And of course, he's already captured his story, but we want to capture this story, and we want to create basically a Smithsonian library of these stories, and so, and then Greg and so we tried it, and then I'm like, gosh, we gotta have a business person or an entrepreneur asking the questions, because you need to know what lines to go down to get the story. And so Greg actually interviewed every one of the guests. You never hear His voice. Dimitri Caladimos produced it for us. And then we use Clark Buckner, who was one of the first podcasters in the area, and he has his podcasting company, is doing fabulous and teaches at Belmont now. And we use Clark's voice because it was a nice voice with our entrepreneurs and so so much thought went into it. But I will say to your point, I don't know if you all knew Daryl Freeman. And Daryl was a an entrepreneur in this town, and we knew him from Little League out here at Brentwood, Civitan, and he became a very good friend, and he was one of the most successful black entrepreneurs in our community. And Daryl, we did his podcast, and if you have a chance listen to it. I mean, I just ask you listen to it. And when Daryl passed away, I was with my daughter in Greece, and I sat and cried and cried and cried and I listened to his story, and it was like, Thank you. God, this is why we're doing this. His grandchildren will be able to listen to his story in his words. And so for me, I agree. You know, we're sort of a rare crazy read, but not for the faint of heart, not for the faint of heart, but yeah. So for me, it was, yeah, that's why we're doing this.
Carli 49:56
And the emotion in your face is so real and authentic. Authentic, and I think perfectly encapsulates what it feels like to be an entrepreneur. You said earlier, it's your fifth child, but it's more than that. It's so tied up in the lifeblood of your whole existence, because you're trying to raise your family, you're trying to be a good spouse, but you're also trying to do right by the people you serve and the people that work with you. And you carry that on your back every bit as heavy as the people you gave birth to, absolutely and it's this myriad of like sweat and tears and prayers and anger and blow ups and joy that it's so hard to tell your own story. We've actually tried recently to tell our own story. And what I find fascinating. And I wonder if Greg was sitting in here, and I feel like this would probably be true, we tell the story completely differently, completely different, because my paradigm of what we have done, from my viewpoint, is super different than Spencer's, and the things that are seared into your brain are often really different than the moments that are seared into mine. But I'd love to ask, as you work with entrepreneurs, and you've lived kind of a lifestyle of entrepreneurial marriage, really, it seems like from the beginning, what would you tell people that are trying to start their business or in a business about what it takes to be a partnership on and off the court, if you would put it that way.
Jane Allen 51:23
You mean as far as husband and wife, yeah, because it's uniquely hard. It is and I do think, like even the comment, take the chips off the table, I would never use that comment.
Carli 51:33
We actually use. Spencer uses that comment.
Jane Allen 51:37
I wouldn't, for me not having my house on the line, that was a big deal, you know. And so when you sign with personal guarantee, private equity, all of a sudden they didn't need my personal guarantee. I mean, you know, because those are that's much, that's my children's home, you know. And we're risking everything for this. So, I mean, but yes. And so I think, oh, gosh, you know, I think my mother, you know, again, my parents divorced when I was seven, and we were the only divorced family in our town and so when our child, first born, was born, she came up and, you know, and I'm just so proud and everything, and she sat me down and she said, Jane, it scares me, because you're a mother, like I was a mother, and this child is your life, and he's not. Your husband is your life, and you and Greg have to build a firm foundation upon which to raise your children, and so I'm going to fly up and you and Greg are going to take three days for just the two of you, and you're going to leave this child, and I'm just like, Oh my God, you're going To and she said, Because I wouldn't leave you all, and she did, as long as her health allowed. And then Greg's parents sort of enter, you know, and they would take the kids. And so I think for Greg and I, even when we started the company, we would take three days. And, I mean, believe me, we're on hot wire. We're getting cheap, cheap, cheap. I mean, you know, because we have no money and so, but it would be three days for just us, and we're not talking business. We're not talking about the kids. We might be hiking, we might be playing golf. We might be, you know, those are be, basically the two things we would do. You know, he is not a beach guy, but, you know, we would just take time to pour into one another and remember why we're together, and then I think you've got to be a strong husband and a strong wife, because I always said I took him for granted, because I serve the people we that work for us. I that was probably my biggest thing, is people that believed in this crazy vision and left a day job to come and work with us. Oh, I've got to make them successful, sure. And then my clients, they're putting their trust in us, well, we've got to make them successful. And then you have these children, poor Greg, you know? And in some ways, poor Jane, because he had other businesses. He never was an employee of our company. He was always an advisor, and he was and so he had other businesses. And so I think it, I think it really is taking time to remember why you're together, and know it's going to be hard, and I want to tell you the real answer most would give, open communication, clear communication. Well, I am I wish.
Carli 54:45
Yeah, I wish. But some days there's just not time. And you know what? Conversation without other people, and
Jane Allen 54:52
You know the conversation is going to spiral, and it's like, I really don't want to deal with that right now, so I'm just going to keep moving forward. But I want to tell you that is the answer. But I can't tell you, I practice that all the time.
Carli 55:03
Well, it's scheduling time. And you know, what's interesting is my dad and stepmom were really faithful about that too. They always took trips away from their three kids together and me too. And so even when the kids really little and a nightmare to take care of, they would say you just have to get out of this house. You are not allowed to know what happens in this house while you are absolutely I also want to touch on something that when you were talking about that conversation, that precious conversation, with your 13 year old before you went to the Entrepreneurship Center, it's something I tell my girls a lot, and I'll illustrate it by our daughter, Zoe, is in a speech class right now, and she's a gifted little speaker, like she is her father's daughter, and so we have raised her to speak. We throw her on stage at stuff. Because I think you know, if it takes 10,000 hours to master something, you might as well get those hours out of the way when people think you're cute and it doesn't matter, right? But she said, Mom, all the girls in my class act like they don't want to go in front of other people, and it's become she didn't use the word norm, but everyone acts like they need to act embarrassed or they're afraid. And I looked at her, and I said, Baby, you put your shoulders back and you never dimmed your light. Because you know what happens if you're good at something is it gives them the permission to try and to feel like they're good at it, too. And when we have to work or travel, or I just had to leave for something recently, and it was over the big snow, and I left Spence with all four kids, you know, he was prepping for a big work thing, and I had to go do this thing. And I looked at my girls that day, and they said, Mom, you have to go. And I said, I hate leaving you, but I want you to know that someday you're going to have to leave, and it's going to be really important, and you're not going to be able to cancel it. And I want you, in this moment to know that your mom absolves you of all guilt, and that will make you a successful woman, for them to miss you, for you to miss them, and for you to go and do what you have to do. And so I see that, and I really appreciate you modeling that for your family, and likely all the entrepreneurs, yeah, and I do think,
Jane Allen 57:05
You know, I think one of them, when I was in the in the wilderness, and I was there my first born, I think he articulated, you know, Mom, you raised four independent children, and Now you coming in and wanting to micromanage us. It's just not going to work, not going to work. And, you know, and I think that's true. I mean, my kids were and are independent, and, you know, and you hope and pray that they're a light in this world, and that they make the world better, and that they draw people in, and that they get surrounded by light as well. And I think that's where, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, you know, there's never one solution for anyone and I have wonderful friends who chose to stay home and be with their family. And I so admire that too. And so, again, I think there's not a one, one box. I just think for our life. You know, I feel very fortunate that Greg and I found one another, and we are definitely yin and yang, but I do think we have created four amazing human beings and hopefully other things, such as company and had relationships with employees and customers and lawyers that have definitely benefited our life, and hopefully we've benefited theirs as well.
Carli 58:30
I think it's much like trying to run a family and a business at the same time. Is like you talked about the life cycle of an entrepreneur. We're in our own life cycle too. There's gonna be moments where you have to push ahead to get the thing done right, and then there's moments where you find equilibrium again or devote more time to something else. But we aren't stagnant, and we're never just one thing. We're living through this life cycle, and I think it's just the trust to know that we will have what we need when we get to the place, right? We will know what to do when we get there. Now, I don't know the day before that's right, but when you have to figure it out, nobody else gets to figure it out for you, so you will figure it out.
Jane Allen 59:10
Yeah, and I think that's where, like, even for somebody that's thinking, to go back to your question, you know, I remember, you know, when our company was, you know, first few years, and you would interview or talk. I always said, I talk to people, not interview people, but it would be, if you look out in five years, what do you see? And if they have a clear picture of their life, they're probably not going to be the best employee to come in and work with us, because I think, as an entrepreneur, I think it's great to have goals, but if you can color in the lines, because you're going to have to pivot, and you're going to have to adapt, and you're going to have to change. I mean, like I said, I started this company for women to allow them the ability to work while they had. Children. The first person I placed was the man, and very few women worked with our company because of their children. I mean, you in our and I started it thinking it was for mid sized law firms. Well, it ended up being fortune, 100 companies as well as some law firms. So, I mean, you just evolve and you listen and you identify what the problems or the pain points are, and then you figure out whether you're really the right solution for them, and if not, maybe you can recommend somebody else. Because I always wanted to do what was in the best interest of the client, and in my lawyers and my my in the people that chose to work with us, because, again, I don't even call them my employees. We were a team and, you know? And I think that's true. And so I think our kids are that way too, which URLs probably will be as well. You know, my, my girl, it's like, oh, I don't think she can be boxed in, you know. And, but on the other hand, that's not the easy road. And so, you know, easy was never the goal, yeah, and that's exactly so, I mean, again, you know, I just think it's, we feel very fortunate. It's powerful.
Spencer 1:01:11
Jane, one thing that we like to put as a wrap on our episodes is we do a little game of fill in the blank with you. Okay, we've got three sentences that end in a blank, and you give us the first word or phrase that comes to mind to finish these out. So you haven't seen these, so we'll see what you come up
Spencer 1:01:36
One misconception about entrepreneurship is blank.
Jane Allen 1:01:46
One misconception about entrepreneurship
Jane Allen 1:01:54
if I work hard enough, it's going to be a home run.
Spencer 1:02:00
It's great out of the gate. Man, that was a good one. I like that a lot. That all over, yeah, okay. Number two, flexible work options are important because blank.
Jane Allen 1:02:17
Flexible work options are important because we are human beings who all are walking on different paths at different times in our life, we might need a little flexibility
Spencer 1:02:35
Outstanding and the last one, leadership during challenging times requires blank
Jane Allen 1:02:52
A lot of answers there. Let me try to narrow it to one. Leadership during challenging times requires adapting.
Spencer 1:03:06
That's right on. That's the spot that you talked about just before that, of the ability to pivot. I was so thankful to hear you say that in you don't call them interviews, but in the discussions and the talking with people that are looking at working with that 510, 15 year plan is always the biggest joke, and I was so thankful to hear to say, you know, there are so many things that life throws at you, curve balls that you can't expect, outliers, phone calls, that in a single second can change your whole world. And the ability to pivot, the ability to adapt, is truly one of the most important parts of leadership, and being able to model that I joke with Carli stepping off the elevator here on the floor, when you're a leader, you forfeit the right to come running off that elevator like, oh my gosh, I don't know what's going on, and just going crazy on the floor. It would be pandemonium if, if one of us stepped off the elevator like that. And so it's that knowledge that that foresight and the expectation of the insistence of being able to pivot. So your story is amazing in that your story is one of pivots. And I think some of them have been calculated, some of them have been whimsical in nature. Some have been unexpected. It just is really fun to see your evolution over time. And we know that you're in a little bit of a sabbatical season now you're in that wilderness experience of all right, Lord, what do you have for me next? Exactly, and so Carli and I will both be praying. For you in this season of pivoting, that whatever the next chapter is is consistent with what the Lord has planned for you, because the things that you've done so far give lots of promise for what's ahead.
Jane Allen 1:05:13
Well, thank you. I so appreciate it, and I admire what you all have done. I mean, you know, it's really powerful to see people who've accomplished but continue to grow and evolve and learn, and I mean, that's to me, that's what life's about. And so I admire you all are creating a playbook for others that you may not even realize. So congratulations.
Spencer 1:05:40
Thank you for being here. Thank you.
Carli 1:05:49
We just got done talking to Jane Allen Man, what a relatable story to your and I's background. I thought it was uniquely interesting about Jane that they have the exact opposite of our family, right? So they had three boys in three years. We had four, three girls in three years, and then a bonus baby five years later. So I loved that we had that in common. I thought it was a really interesting conversation about the ebb and flow of motherhood and how it intersects with business, that there will be times where you as an entrepreneur, have to put all the chips on the table, right? We use that terminology where you put it all out there, and you have to, when you are making those calculated risks, you have to fight. You have no other choice. And sometimes your customers, in her case, her clients, like they have to come first. But if you're being honest, as a mother, you do feel like part of your soul dies a little bit, and that's just the ying and yang. I just I wish we could normalize that we aren't always going to be there perfectly for our children, and we aren't going to always be there perfectly for our customers and our clients or for the people that are on our team, and all we can do is do the best with what we have in that moment, and that best is going to look super different, right than when you're in the toddler years or the newborn years versus I have a kid that a work schedule and a school schedule, but darn it, if schools don't hate parents, and the schedule changes every day, but it does ebb and flow, and I think there's a lot of guilt that comes with that as a woman, because you think you should have it figured out, and you should know what you're doing day in day out, and my parenting should be consistent, and my work product should be consistent, and I should be this consistent wife. And gosh, was it not just a fresh air, a breeze in the room when she was like, it isn't consistent. It's different day by day, year by year, and I just wish we had more community around that truth. We would all feel a lot less isolated. She's one of the first people we've ever talked to about entrepreneurship that was willing to say what we have actually experienced, which is there are moments when your house is on the line, where you are so razor thin in your margin that you don't know if you're going to make that mortgage payment. And I think for you and I spent it's been really interesting. We always had the same conversation that she did with Greg, right, which was, what is the worst case scenario? What happens if this all falls apart, because it's really easy on this side of things to look back and feel like you were clairvoyant, right, like you knew how it was going to turn out. And of course, you made that decision because you could see a decade into the future, and it was all going to be work getting out, but when you were gone all the time on trucks, and we didn't see you, basically from November through December. And we've got toddlers at home, and I'm trying to do my part, and you're doing your part, you know, I didn't know it was going to turn out all the time, and I was scared. And I would pepper you with questions, be like, how are we going to make this work? And how are you going to make that work? And you'd be answering these questions well past midnight or on the phone while you're finishing your route, and so always questioning that what is the worst case scenario and becoming comfortable with what that could look like, I think, is uniquely what it feels like in an entrepreneurial marriage. I thought it was really interesting when she talked about going into business with your best friend, as opposed to maybe a spouse or someone that's your opposite. We tend to want to be with people that are just like us, but the problem is, the people like us have the same giftings as us, and I don't need three people with my giftings. In fact, I'd probably be very annoyed with them, because I can be a lot sometimes I think it's why we work so well is I think of it like holding hands. It's where I cover your weak spots, and you cover my weak spots, and together, we're so much better than the individual pieces. The sum is greater than the whole I said that wrong. The sum is greater than the individual parts. I guess because you need opposite skills. I always. Just tell people a silly story of when I went to Vanderbilt, I knew not a soul on campus. Didn't have a friend. I had visited Nashville twice, and I just knew it was where I was supposed to be, but I didn't know anyone, and so I ended up with a random college roommate. And luckily, Laura was awesome, and she's from Ohio, but I think what made us work is we weren't best friends. She would go her way and have her friend group, and I would go my way and have my friend group, and when we come back, we would talk about our day, and I would be super interested in her life and her and mine, but we never stepped on each other's toes. And I think in a business partnership, it's a lot like my college roommate, it's like we get to do some things together, but really, we're dividing and conquering and using our skill sets and being in the places where we're called to be, and then we're coming back and mind melding to be even better for the next day. And that's certainly how it was for the first decade and a half of our business. And I see a lot of truth in that, still.
