Jason Dukes on Data and Tech in Nonprofits
Spencer and Annalee speak with futurist and nonprofit leader Jason Dukes. In his role at Love Justice International, Jason is at the forefront of using technology to combat the human trafficking crisis at its source. The conversation also covers cryptocurrency and its impact on and applications for nonprofits.
About Jason Dukes
Jason Dukes is the Vice President of Advancement at Love Justice International. For nearly 26 years, Jason and his wife Jennifer have called Nashville, TN their home, where they live with their 7 children.
Throughout his journey, Jason has worn many hats, earning acclaim as a strategist, futurist, creator, communicator, fundraiser, team-builder, and multiplier. From launching churches and non-profits to fostering networks and businesses, including a lawn mowing venture he started at the tender age of 13, Jason's entrepreneurial spirit knows no bounds. His diverse career has also seen him as an author, professor, basketball coach, and marketing leader.
For over three decades, Jason has wielded the power of words to ignite purpose and empower others. Now, he's excited to bring his expertise to the LJI team, where he'll help share their impactful story with the world.
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Spencer 00:06
Jason Dukes, welcome to signature. Required. Excited to have you here today.
Jason Dukes 00:11
So grateful to be here. Spencer and Annalee, thank you guys for having me on.
Spencer 00:15
You're with love justice International, and your title is VP of advancement. I don't think I've ever seen that title before, and I really like it, like the vice president of just moving forward and getting things done. Is that a real title?
Jason Dukes 00:31
Well, that's the title they gave me. I, like you had never I don't think I had ever heard of it, but I enjoy it because I appreciate the chance to say, Yeah, let's jump in and figure out how to advance this forward.
Spencer 00:43
So that sounds very entrepreneurial and scrappy. A lot of times, you can tell a lot about an organization just in how they title their staff. So I like that. I'm going to be inspired by that. Spend some time, for those that don't know, love justice International. Tell us what that's all about, and then we're going to find out about you.
Jason Dukes 01:03
So love justice international exists to fight to prevent human trafficking as it's occurring. And so what's cool about that is it's we're one of the only that we know of tangible database like impact data driven prevention models for anti trafficking work. And so our innovative strategy is called transit monitoring. We strategically look out at major transit points and try to notice red flags, which is the logo. It's on the back of my hat here, I guess I'll point not the thing but but the so that that we look for red flags, and we look for signs that might say, okay, that's an odd situation. It's at a transit station of like a bus station, a railway station, an airport, a border crossing and and then they are allowed, by permission of local authorities to approach those people, interview them separately, and then either either determine that it is indeed trafficking, or then or it's not. And if it's not, they let them go. If it is, they seek to try to rescue or intercept, is what we call it, the person from that situation.
Annalee Cate 02:19
So the origin of the transit monitoring concept, because it is, I have not heard as much as we talked about human trafficking. I haven't heard a lot of the prevention strategy. So I think it's really innovative, what you guys are doing. Where did that transit monitoring concept come from Initially?
Jason Dukes 02:33
That’s a great question. So our founder who who went over on a trip with some college buddies to Kathmandu, Nepal back in 2004 and then didn't come home like he has lived there ever since. He was brokenhearted just by what he saw there, the way that kids in particular were treated on the streets by 2006 he realized that one of the major demographics in the Indian sex trade was Nepali women. And so the border crossings, right? They began to ask the question, How in the world can we get upstream? Like the Chalmers center in Chattanooga says, How do we get upstream on this issue, instead of just downstream from the rescue standpoint, which, by the way, we have partnering organizations that do rescuing, that's amazing work, we just were trying to get upstream. And so, as he can, like, consulted with, talked with various people in the industry and in the anti trafficking work, they came up with, kind of the idea of, let's try this, and to be candid, and he'll tell you this, our CEO will tell you it, it didn't work very well for nearly three years, like they didn't get momentum with it. They didn't get traction in any particular way that they piloted it. And then all of a sudden, in oh nine, they actually, they actually called the whole staff at that time. I wasn't on team, obviously, then, but they called the whole staff at that time to a season of just praying together, fasting together, just even if they weren't of that bent of just taking time to really lean into this. And all of a sudden it skyrocketed. Wow, like that 2009 just it took off and And ever since, they've seen significant, you know, just how anything grows, they've seen the up, slight, steady, up, slight, steady, and just continued to see, maybe similar to bitcoins path, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, but like, that's kind of what they've seen growth wise. And it's been wild to watch. But that was the origin of it.
Annalee Cate 04:38
That's a girl. There's that entrepreneurial grit we talk about. Because I thought you were gonna say they pulled everyone together and said, it's not working. We're quitting, you know. And then instead, it was, we're gonna lean harder into this. That's incredible.
Jason Dukes 04:49
It was so cool. It was so and just like you, that's what attracted me to the organization, was the humility of our CEO, the innovative nature, the way he thinks I'm. Entrepreneurially, where I think we have a lot of really strategic minded leaders who look at situations and say, how do we come up with a problem? I mean a solution to that problem.
Spencer 05:10
Can you help me understand what upstream means more? Because I don't know that I have a great understanding of what the sex trafficking river looks like of the points of interception that you have. So can you help me understand just contextually, what that means?
Jason Dukes 05:30
Yeah, no doubt. So that concept you probably have heard before, like just in the work of being downstream working on a problem, yeah, versus being upstream, but in the context of of of human trafficking going upstream would be getting into the way of when someone is it's typically promised a false opportunity, and in being promised that false opportunity, they buy into going somewhere with someone. So the question that our founder began to ask is, how do we get there? Because what most psychologists would say is that once someone enters into forced labor or the sex trade or or or the more hideous other outcomes that sometimes are involved in human trafficking, if you can be more hideous than those two when they enter into that trauma, and the compound nature of it, it's, it's, I don't know the exact percentage, but it's less than half a percentage of people that ever have any sense of normalcy, yeah, when they're rescued out of that the uphill battle of recovery and so like, that's the downstream right, is to go and rescue In that moment where they've already been there, they've already been in the river, so to speak. But if you can get on the banks up here before someone sold into it, and someone who's walked out of metaphorically, that river, and they've gone to a village and convinced maybe a young lady or even a group of guys, because we just intercepted recently, a group of five men that were promised a false job, it ended up being determined that it was not a real job. Our interception team was able to determine that with our safe employment verification concept, and then they were able to say, that's not a real job. They rescued them out of that moment. So before they were ever even sold into forced labor, they were able to rescue them. So that's really how do you get up here, before they ever get into that river and experience the traumatic nature of of what they would go through once they were in that.
Spencer 07:32
That makes sense. So in business terms, I might think of it like the recruiting stage, that there is a moment in time where an individual, probably undereducated, desperate in some way, at some intersection of their own life, is seeing a job posting, is seeing a ticket to what they are being told is freedom, And you all have the experience of identifying telltale markers, red flags like what you say to say, Okay, we've seen this before, and this is actually the types of patterns of malicious conduct. And from there, how do you interact from there? So you find it, it's probably digital in nature. So do you respond to the ad or it sounds like you notify authorities? Help me understand how that works.
Jason Dukes 08:27
So, great question. I love that you asked that, because I think you're going to dig the second answer. Let me give you the first answer. The first answer is, since 2006 at border crossings, bus stations, railway stations, like, for example, the New Delhi railway station. 500,000 people per day go through it, if you can process that, yeah, like, and you can verify that, whether it's on Google or chat, GPT or whatever you like, you can ask, and you'll find out, we believe you. It's pretty crazy. And five minute walk, a five minute walk from that railway station is the red light district in Delhi. And so like, I've been there, I got my third week on the job. They flew me to Kathmandu in Delhi so I could see our work on the ground. And so in answering your question, like at that railway station, at other places, like border crossings, bus stations, we have transit monitors, representatives who look they see what's happening. If someone's traveling together without bags, or they look confused, they approach them, they interview them, they separate them, determine it if an interception needs to be made, and then if it, if they do and they can see that it was trafficking, they make a case, turn it over to authorities, and then it's up to the authorities whether they arrest them or not. That's out of our hands and and then they try to return that person to safety. So that's the first answer to what happens in that but it's funny, recently, we even have been piloting a technology that we created, which I love our in the innovation of our tech and our data science crew in South Africa, we're piloting basically the ability to scrape. Cheap social media and job sites. And then AI helps us determine, along with our own set of eyes, what particular job postings sound like they might be trafficking. Yeah. And then, if we've noticed, someone has responded to it, some of our representatives are on call to call or reach out or or comment or message those people, and we're not trying to help in a way that's harmful, right? If you've heard that phrase before, don't, don't help and harm, right? We try to help in a way that's not harmful, obviously. And so we certainly are not trying to keep someone from a real job or a promise of something that's a better future in any way. But in that situation, we're able to say to them, we've determined that we think that that particular job posting is most likely false. So please proceed with caution. Here's what you need to look for, and then they educate that person. And even in our pilot, which just started recently, we've seen over 500 interceptions already, and it's pretty crazy. How long is that pilot? That pilot's been going on less than six months? Wow. So pretty wild. And we were told by, I won't say who it was, because I don't want to throw them under the bus, but a particular us tech social media group that we wouldn't work. We wouldn't be able to figure it out. And our tech guys did, and so pretty, pretty amazing that what they've done so far with
Annalee Cate 11:25
That the most common strategy that you're seeing and that the AI is detecting is job board, job post type opportunity.
Jason Dukes 11:32
It is for that tech approach, but, but even in the non tech approach, like the face to face, when our transit monitors intercept someone or approach someone, even there, it's been, typically, not all the time, but almost all the time it's been, and we have data to support that it's been a some type of false opportunity, some promise that's been made that they're not going to keep. They're going to actually put them into forced labor or sex slavery or something worse.
Spencer 12:04
Jason, one comment that you made that made me think about another technology is for AI. There are cameras that schools are deploying that you can tell by the gate how someone walks across the parking lot, whether they have a weapon, and you can tell from their cadence, their body posture, and if you have enough data to feed into the system, the walk and movements of a school shooter is actually detectable in a parking lot prior to them making it in the school, which is incredible technology, sure, and shows some of the ways that AI can really serve us. And give us an early warning, I would imagine that that technology would be incredibly applicable in this space, knowing that you most often have two people that are walking together or more. Is this something that you've heard of before or seen deployed?
Jason Dukes 13:05
Well, it's funny. You say that, because one thing we're we are dreaming about from an advancement standpoint, is, how could we, and I'll use Elon's technology because it's maybe more known, but like, how could we take a Starlink concept and make it to where every one of our transit monitoring stations have access to internet and that kind of feed, so that in real time, we can do multiple things. How do we then leverage camera technology with AI to notice and take all this incredible, this robust database that we now have and be able to put things in that say, this is what you're looking for. This is who this is maybe the type of grouping. Maybe they don't have bags. Maybe that, you know, I'm saying, like, you kind of put all that in, feed that into the system, and then able to say, like, Okay, so now it'll at least alert us in real time and alert our monitors to be looking for certain people. We've dreamt about that, like, how do we leverage that technology? How do we even make it almost like, because, you know, as a nonprofit, you're trying to raise revenue, right? So how could we even create it in such a way, or find entrepreneurs that want to help us create it, and then that becomes a very unique way to multiply investment, where we white label that technology, we sell it to airports. We sell it to, you know, I'm saying, like, yeah, so from a revenue because that one of the my roles in advancement is to try to think of more innovative revenue generation concepts. So we're not only relying on donations, but maybe there's entrepreneurial, gifted leaders who say, I know that stuff. I can help you accomplish that, you know, like, we have a gaming idea right now, for example, that we're thinking about. And, you know, and so like, well, I can help you accomplish those things, and that'll multiply that investment, not just give a donation, if that makes sense. So that's a way that we're dreaming about that technology, not only can it help on the ground, but it even helps advance us. When we get welcomed into other countries or other situations, we can find revenue that helps us to research. Course that.
Annalee Cate 15:00
And I'd have to think on the efficiency side of it too. You know, when you're talking about 500,000 people a day in New Delhi, I don't know how many people you typically have doing the human observation element, but I'd have to think the biggest hurdle is just, do we have enough bodies even to process this many people, versus being able to save that and then act based on alerts. So I would think that would be like a tenfold type.
Jason Dukes 15:24
I think tenfold, maybe even much more. I mean, seriously, like you, I think you're exactly right. I think that kind of technology would be incredibly helpful, especially in those types of places. The Nepali, Nepali border crossings are a little different, right? It's not 500,000 per day, but in a railway station or even a major airport, I mean, something like that becomes incredibly valuable.
Annalee Cate 15:47
And as it stands right now, for the human monitoring is that are those direct like employees of the organization? Is that volunteers? How is that training? How big are the teams are out in the field doing this?
Jason Dukes 16:00
I love that you asked that. So it just, it just depends on the context. Because in some context we need, they need to be staff, and that's for various reasons, whether it's security or whether it's training or whether it's compliance. There's different reasons. And then in some areas, they're, they're able to be like we may have a project manager that's on staff who then works with several local organizations like churches and nonprofits who and then we train those volunteers, provide them with the resources they need to be transit monitors. And we love that because it helps us keep what we call our cost per intercept. It helps us keep that low, like in Uganda right now, I think over the last we have we do it by 12 month rolling average. And I think the last 12 months in Uganda, it's been $124 but in a lot of other places right now it's 180 ish. But if you think about that, like per intercept, or trying to keep it between that 120 to 180 mark and and just how you know, be, be, be faithful stewards of that, of those resources.
Spencer 17:00
Jason, your calling in this space is a unique one, in that there's not a lot of people that can show up to work every day and deal with the heaviness of this topic, I imagine, like, have tremendous respect for doctors who do pediatric oncology, right dealing with children with cancer, and just how much you have to just carry that with you. Just when you leave those hospital doors doesn't mean that it leaves your mind. So I'd love to talk about you for a second and just talk about how this was put on your heart to begin with, a little bit about what your story has been and how you've wound up into the role of VP of advancement?
Jason Dukes 17:44
Well, yeah, thank you for asking. I mean, you know, first of all, I need to say our our real heroes are not me in an advancement role. They're the transit monitors and and our investigations team and our safe employment verifiers and our data I mean, those guys are the real heroes. But you're right. I mean, it's a heavy work, and it's a dark work. Some of that, some of what attracted me to it originally, was because of some of my own story and and I grew up in inner city, New Orleans. My dad pastored a mostly black church, which I didn't know was a unique thing for this white kid to say, but I learned that when I went to college how unique that was, and because I was finally kind of out of that inner city culture that took that long to be, yeah. And so I saw it first, like really directly, even in some experiences, when I got to Union University in Jackson, Tennessee is where I went to college and and, but growing up in that inner city culture and seeing some of the hardships there, the violence, the difficulties and and then myself becoming a victim of of what a counselor now would call compound trauma like like you, you know, some of that's in my own background and story. And so my heart goes out to people who find themselves being preyed upon in those kinds of situations. So fast forward my I met my wife in college. We ended up in Orlando, and I was doing several things, but I ended up being asked to do a church start out by Disney. We We ended up building the 59th house and this 33,000 acre development that was just north of the Magic Kingdom, we could see the Magic Kingdom fireworks from our house, a nice perk. It was pretty cool. Pretty cool. And, and so we did this church start, which we ended up starting a nonprofit and a network and two businesses. And just we were very entrepreneurial and in the way that we approached it and and by 2008 we learned we didn't know this upfront. We learned that Orlando is one of the hubs for human trafficking in the States, and some of that's because at that time, we were seeing 62 to 72 million visitors per year, and in that tourist. Hospitality industry. It became a significant component, unfortunately, of the dark side of that. And you see it in Vegas. You see it in Newark. There's other towns that that have it, but at that time, we were one of the leading towns in it, in the nation and and so some of our people that we work directly with, whether it was pastoring or as a nonprofit leader or a business leader, some of the various people that we worked with got seriously involved in it. And so it made our wife, my wife and me, not our wife, my wife and me. It made my wife and me pay attention to it and and so we began to give into it. We began to see people that we worked with serve in it, and just have stayed involved with it in that way. And so I ended up in Nashville, kind of being asked to do some similar things that I had done there in Florida when I came here. And then we've been here since 2015 and and and then, long story short, I After a stint in the tech world, my dad passed away last year, and I got recommended over into this this role, and it was the first we had heard of this organization and and that made me sad, because I began to see the great work they were doing, and that I had not heard of them, but we had been paying attention to that space for so long. Just made me burden to want to amplify that story.
Spencer 21:29
And just to get one piece of your story there you were talking about Orlando and Vegas and talking about the hospitality area going hand in hand with some of this is that am I understand that correctly. You're talking about people that were there as tourists being picked off into this industry, like kidnapped style, or are you meaning what, what specifically.
Jason Dukes 21:50
it's, it's a very it's, it's, it's, it's, it's several different things. But it not only is people that maybe are, are being brought there, and then in that kind of you're in a fun state, and you're kind of more relaxed, right, like and then they get picked off, they get preyed upon and kidnapped. So that does happen. And you can imagine, I had some friends that worked for Disney security, and you talk about the use of technology, they do some pretty amazing things to prevent that, and and so they do a great job at attacking that, but just in all the various hospital elements of the city and the hotels and all the places you can go, Yeah, you know. And so that happens there. But then you also have the sex trade side of it, where a lot of people who are visiting, they're a tourist, and maybe want to get do something in a way that they wouldn't normally do in their normal town or normal setting. And so you see the sex trade as a huge component of what happens in human trafficking there in the Orlando area.
Spencer 22:49
I see, and that makes sense. You reference Vegas and the rest. That makes sense. Okay, that's heavy, yeah. That's, you know, just as a dad to four kids and three daughters, and, you know, just that makes it super real, it does. And I think that's kind of where you have to be on this topic. It's that it is really painful that when you're exploring this as a career, and thinking about, how do you deal with that? I mean, how do you cope, just as you try to come home to your family? I mean, you've got seven beautiful kids and I mean, I just, I have enough intrusive thoughts in my mind that you know, you just, you know, you're trying to push it out of your head, but you just live in that space. So how do you cope?
Jason Dukes 23:43
That's a great question. I mean, when you care, it's difficult to compartmentalize, you know, and, and, but I think you have to learn you talk. I mean, coping is the right word for it, like you just have to learn how to hit pause. I know when I went through my own therapy for my own compound trauma with EMDR and Neurofeedback and other other forms of counseling, I had to learn how to say, this is not that, and I had to learn how to put things in a place and know that I could come back to it okay, and I could feel that later, and I could deal with that later. I had to learn those practices. And so I think, I think it helps me to do that, because, like you, I mean, I have seven kids, four, four of them are daughters. And sex trade, by the way, is not the only form of human trafficking. It's the one that probably has gotten the most play and the most attention. And we've probably, as Americans, become more aware of the sex trade industry than we have other forms of human trafficking, but, but like when I think of my four daughters and I look at our database and know that 16.7 is the average age of the person we intercept, right?
Annalee Cate 24:53
I was going to ask that, because when you're talking about job boards, and if I was going to ask what the demographic is, but I. Wouldn't have expected it to be so young.
Jason Dukes 25:01
Yeah. And so like, 60% female, 40% male, which most people are surprised by, 16.7 currently is the average age. And so I think about my 16 now, she just turned 17 year old daughter, and and I, I know because I've met some of the people that either were in that red light district that I told you, they that I got to go visit, which was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done, was walking through that I know who I whose eyes I looked into there and I and I, it was so it wasn't easy at all to leave there. The idea that my daughter right is it has freedom and has all of these opportunities, and yet this young lady is so broken into the space and eventually convinced she could never leave, and all of the things that go into that and so and, you know, I Think for the listeners and the viewers. There's two things I would encourage them with which maybe you were going to ask me later, but I'll just say it now, because it's in the context of you asking how heavy this is, like, like, as far as coping with it and even doing something about it, people hear this, and they go, I want to do something, yeah, but it's such a huge problem, right? That they go, I don't know what to do, and so it's overwhelming. And I think the two things you can do, I mean, one, you you there are things you can do, but you have to take it a bite at a time. You have to cope like you're saying, where you say, I can't fix the entire problem, but I'll do what I can do to help save one person, or to give to this organization that I know is helping in this way, or maybe even locally, to say I'm going to serve, because I know this also exists, even in a place like Tennessee. And how can I attack? How can I help law enforcement, for example, be on the lookout for it. I mean, there's lots of different things that you can do, and that's what you do. You do something, and then you learn how to cope with the fact that you wish that wasn't there, but it is, and what can we do about it?
Annalee Cate 27:05
Yeah, and it's got psychologically, the feeling like the numbers and the prevalence are growing, but if you just focus on the one, I have to imagine that in some of the strategies you guys have shared with us, even of how you market and try to do fundraising and things like that. Even the bracelets that you showed us ahead of time, I think keeping that focus on saving the one has to it had. It has to be the top of mind.
Jason Dukes 27:30
Well, and it does. And you talk, that's another way I think, that we all cope in the in our nonpro in our organization, is we, every month collect stories from every transit monitoring station. And so part of, I think what helps us all cope is hearing the stories of the ones that we did intercept. Have to have that, and that allows us to go, Okay, this matters. Now. I have a colleague on on team who one of the things he keeps before him on a on a note is a text message he received of somebody that we had intercepted that then authorities let go through with their trafficker, and that one that got away keeps him motivated to just continue to work hard at making sure we just we get it better and better and better at what we do.
Spencer 28:20
Well, there's no easy way to transition from just the weight of the topic, but I do want to honor one tradition we do every time on signature required, which is to talk about some things that you've brought here today. So we have every guest bring something and that is sitting behind me here on the shelf, so I'd love for you to take a minute to just as we're starting to understand you as a person, it's always insightful to hear about that. And we also have a book, so maybe take a half and half opportunity to address both of them.
Jason Dukes 28:57
Yeah, thank you so curious. George, when I was three years old, my dad began to call me George, for Curious George, and and so my mom gave me that particular stuffed animal right there. And obviously I held that as a kid, and then, you know, eventually put it on a bookshelf. And so when they told me to bring something that kind of represented maybe me, I thought I couldn't think of anything better. I almost brought a picture of my wife, because that's the other thing that I think is such a huge steady in my life, but, and I'm so thankful for her, but she encouraged me to bring this as well, because I've just always been a learner, like I've always been curious, I've always asked questions. I've always been a little bit mischievous, maybe, but mainly because, because of that nature of wanting to see, learn, innovate, discover more, and and, and so. So that has just always been a real, meaningful part of my life. And I. And then to transition to the book, it's what drove me. When I first was asked to be a student pastor back in the mid 90s, I actually stopped and I prayed and said, I said, Jesus, if, if, Jesus, if I'm going to be on your team. And this, like, like, what do you want for your team? Like, I, you know, we do this thing called church. And we do all these various things that we say are in your name, but like, what do you really want? Like, what, what, what? Why did you say we were worth dying for, and, and, and what I kept sensing is I would kind of process that as a student pastor, and then a college pastor, and then a lead pastor was the idea of our lives being something that communicates that message that you're worth dying for to someone and and that your identity and security have been nailed down, and it gives you this life giving purpose and and so I wrote this book actually, mainly because I was watching my mom's life, who had been living so authentically in this way, and then she died, very tragically in 2009 in an accident. And so her, her, the actual, the postage mark on the front is the day that she passed, and rd is her, or her initials, as you see there. But, but her life was such a live sent life. It was such a life that was given as a letter to others, to to encourage, to challenge, to sharpen, to to give them a message that said, you matter and you are worth so much, like you're even worth dying for, and and so like that idea is what permeated and so then, from just a disciple making and a and the idea of people embodying this message that Jesus, I think, embodied in all of his life and and even in His death and His life again, like that idea is what kind of drove me then to write that book just for everyday people and to live a life That was a letter, a love letter to others.
Annalee Cate 32:03
I love to see the mosaic, kind of of different parts of someone's life come together to that calling exactly what I was gonna say, yeah. And I think the thing for me is, when you talk about that life giving mission, too, it comes back to, for me where you started, when you were talking about getting upstream, because that is such a unique and core part. It sounds like of the mission that that your organization and you personally are on is not just rescue, but like giving them a life that has, you know, I'm actually a little emotional, but, you know, giving them something really to look forward to, and basically a full life that isn't encumbered, you know, with trauma and the challenges that come with that, but it's an incredible mosaic that you've built there.
Jason Dukes 32:51
No thank you for that. I mean, my favorite story of love justice, stories that I ever see are the ones of someone intercepted, who then becomes a transit monitor, or becomes somebody who was so moved by it that they decide, I'm going to do this too. I'm going to figure out how to give in this way.
Annalee Cate 33:10
How do you feel like I want to talk about the parent thing too, because it is, it's I have to imagine in that fight, of course, it's going to impact how you parent and how you, you know, raise a family, but how has, how has what you've learned and the work that you've done impacted how you approach parenting, you know, raising seven?
Jason Dukes 33:29
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I was challenged by a mentor when my oldest was three and we were about to have our second. Katie's her Caleb is our oldest. Katie's our second. And I was challenged by a mentor in Orlando at that time to decide, was I going to parent them for behavioralism and moralism? Was I going to parent them to try to be perfect kids, or was I going to parent them in a life giving way that would help them be learners and life givers and and it pretty much wrecked us, because I think what we had known right was like, you just help moderate behavior, you hope they don't get in too much trouble. But what this mentor was challenging us with was you enter into this narrative that becomes the narrative of their the development of their identity, security and purpose. And you know, as well as I do, that anyone's story involves ebb and flow, up and down, success, failure and and so in other words, you enter it into a that space with grace and with love and with mercy, instead of perfectionism and performance standards, which, again, metrics matter. I get that, that's not what I'm saying, and standards matter and all that, but you enter into this relational narrative with them, and it changed the way we parented, like we we're not perfect by any means as parents. We have so much to learn, but I will say, I think our kids at least want to relate with us. And. And, and that's been such a gift to be, even when you move from the moderation as a kid, where you are challenging, maybe sharpening their behavior more, to becoming almost like a coach, where you are coaching them in decisions they're making, and and then eventually to become a friend, where you become even though you're still their parent, you know, someone that becomes a champion of the and fans their flame and really hopes to see them launch and do incredible things, and, and, and so it definitely has shaped our parenting. I mean, we, we were, we come from two different backgrounds. My wife and I do where, where her mom and dad were incredibly merciful and loving, but maybe we're more focused on a standard. And my dad was probably like, too much gracious, too much like, like way, but some of that maybe was he saw the the rebellious, Curious George nature and me and and so he just didn't put me under his thumb, if that makes sense. But yes was such a common answer from him, right? And so when we had our first kid, that was what he challenged us with, like, let yes be a common answer, you know, and and so my wife and I have had to really figure out that out. Like, how do we navigate this to be gracious and merciful and let this identity, security and purpose develop, and at the same time, lean in when you need to and sharpen when you need to.
Annalee Cate 36:21
That’s great. I'm taking that one home I have in toddler stage, and right now she's no, no, no, which I know she's copying me. I'm like, Okay, I love Val. Take that challenge to take the Yes, bring more of the yes in.
Jason Dukes 36:33
But it's big.
Spencer 36:35
One of the things that we always like to make sure that people understand about anyone we bring on is the things that are being worked on, the exciting technology of the future, I think, is especially related to you. So you and I share a common passion in things related to cryptocurrency and Bitcoin and blockchain. And you would think I did that it was a really bizarre topic to marry together, right? I mean, love justice international feels like it should be its own thing, and blockchain, cryptocurrency and Bitcoin clearly should be another but the two of them are actually more intertwined than what I expected. So can you help just explain why that's even relevant for us to be talking about today, and then maybe we'll explore some of the things we share in college.
Jason Dukes 37:27
No, I love that. Well, I think it's relevant in this conversation because we're involved. All of us are involved in it. And what I mean by that is like, for me, the empowering ethos of decentralized finance is what engaged and attracted me to it, and so when I had the chance to pivot and jump into it, I did, not only because I was intrigued by the technology, but I wanted to time travel, so to speak metaphorically, into it, so I could time travel back out of it and help nonprofits and churches to think about why it matters and how it's going to impact them. Because it's sad to me. It actually burdens me, how many churches and nonprofits have this tsunami coming that they're not even paying attention to. Yeah, and, and, and I don't like that tsunami, because you and I know what that means? Yeah. I mean, that tsunami is this what some people might even go so far as calling a global financial reset. And although that's that can be very dangerous terminology in certain circles, but, but to put it lightly, a new use of money and a new use of commerce and community that that blockchain technology, in particular, not just cryptocurrency, but blockchain technology, is going to enable, and it's going to create, especially for people from bankless societies or people who've never had credit access, but even people in more banked and credit societies. It's going to enable a level of ownership and interoperability and community and commerce that we've never seen before, and it's going to change the way people give, it's going to change the way they relate. It's going to change the way they buy. It's going to change the way their psyche is affected. From a marketing standpoint, it's going to change the way they do loyalty. It's going to change a lot of aspects of our culture. It's even going to allow for a more ethical AI, if we allow it to happen. That's another conversation, probably. But like, like, there's this big tsunami of this, of what I would, I think what most people call augmented reality. I don't think virtual reality is the future. I think augmented reality is and it's this incredible blend of physical and digital, and then in blockchain tech and AI will blend together to begin enabling that, along with the quantum computing concepts that that are even advancing some of those technologies. But like my passion for it and why it's relevant to this conversation, or why you probably brought it up, was because I pivoted into it so I could pivot back out eventually and help nonprofits and churches to think about. It, and so we're imagining, even as an organization, how to utilize that technology in a way that not only generates revenue and potential resources for us, but even allows us to move and operate better because of it.
Annalee Cate 40:16
Okay, so curious. George, I want to ask a question here. So I want to back up just a little bit for our viewers, and we've talked about this extensively, that blockchain technology, this wave of the future, the tsunami that you're talking about right part of it in what creates that is that unfamiliarity, that fear, that I don't even understand it, that so many of us, at times, can feel with this topic. I want to talk about your first introduction and as a early adopter when this technology was emerging, what was that first experience like for you? And kind of put yourself back to where a lot of our viewers probably are with this topic.
Jason Dukes 40:57
So that's so that's a funny question, because my very first experience with it, and I wish remember my background is pastoring, that's a lot of it. And just because of where I grew up, I'll tell both of you, like no one ever taught me, that you could make money on money. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so even even in 2011 I still had not been taught that. And so it wasn't till a few years later that someone began to kind of mentor me in that. So when I first was exposed to it, I wish I had thought, oh, even if I only have $100 to put into it, I should put $100 into it. But I didn't think that, right? Because no one had really ever taught me that. I looked at it and thought, I don't have anything to invest right? But my first time I was ever exposed to it, I had heard of Bitcoin from a friend, because I've always kind of been a futurist, and so I had a tech friend that told me about it, and and I heard that Domino's was taking it as payment for pizza. And I was like, Really, right? And you may remember this, like, how, how? I mean, someone paid a crazy amount of bitcoin, yeah, like, I wish I had 10 of those, right, right? Like, somebody paid a crazy amount of bitcoin for for a Domino's Pizza. And this was even pre, no offense, if you're a Domino's fan out there, but like, this was even pre Domino's rebranding. And, like, pre them, actually, I think having really appetizing pizza again. But like, like, great pizza, yeah, we did. I dig it now, but there was a season so, like, like, all that to say the the when that happened, I started going, huh, that's interesting. Like, and, and this is what, this is, the nerd in me, I'll admit it. So some people maybe will hear this and not relate to it, but the nerd in me was like, So, a currency that's not based on geography and government, right? Wait, what? Like, that was the nerd. Wait, what? Yeah. And I was like, Okay, I don't even like, I don't even know if we can imagine a world like that, right, right? And like and that is. And so what that's, what I think is so funny about it is because the central authorities that typically control those things, this isn't based on that. This is a free, a more free commerce concept. And so that was intriguing to me. I was like, Whoa, that's really interesting. So the Curious George and me began to pay attention to it. And, and it wasn't until 2019 2020, that someone said, Have you ever heard of Coinbase? That I was like, Oh, I guess I could put $100 into it, and, you know, or whatever, and, and, and then it kind of went from there. And now I'm sure, like you I, if I have, if I use Coinbase, it's for various reasons. I have my own, my own wallet, digital wallet, but all that to say, like, like, that's what got me into. It was a Domino's Pizza thing. And I thought that's really interesting. And my mind went to imagining ways that that could be used, right?
Annalee Cate 43:58
right? And I'd love to hear your take on just what you were talking about, even with that lack of centralization, the lack of government involvement, right? I can see, and I'm sure we're going to talk through the features of bitcoin and how it could be a blockchain, how it could be extremely helpful in fighting human trafficking. What about the dark side to how, you know, a lack of a regulated currency like that, the anonymity? I'd love to hear how you balance those two when you look at it.
Jason Dukes 44:31
Yeah, it's a great question. So when I was in that world full time, not in the current role I'm in, I became friends with some folks with chainalysis, which is the leading blockchain data company. If you've not I'm assuming you've heard of them and and I became a fan of what they do. They they do more than what I'm about to say now, but at that time, they were had a heavy focus on fighting criminal activity and decentralized finance through data observation. In through, through being able to leverage how to tie together various transactions, what that might mean. And so now they have, I mean, you may know better than me, Spencer, but now they have 80 something clients that are governments. They have multiple companies that are clients like they. They observe that criminal activity. So can it be used for criminal activity? The answer is yes. Now, when you look at the percentages per capita and per user, the data actually says that we're seeing less corruption there than we are in the actual global financial system. However, there's lots of uncertainty in the decentralized financial system. And so people still, I think, because of that uncertainty, they throw that fear onto it, and it's almost like, you know, flame ignites the flame even more when maybe there wasn't, there was only a small spark there. And so, so what's positive, though about it is because it's a public ledger, because people can see into it. Even if they can't see a name, there's anonymity. But even if they can't see a name, because of the data system that it provides, because of the transparency and the trustless nature of it, you're able to then leverage that to even observe as you build a database, to observe criminal activity. And once you know a certain trafficker who might have a particular wallet address that they've used, you then can start pulling the web pieces together to see how can other connections to that wallet might possibly be criminal activity. And so it can become something that actually becomes really helpful in the nature of looking for criminal activity and but yet protect some of the anonymity behind it, just for the typical user who's not doing criminal activity, and some of the freedom that it gives from a peer to peer standpoint. Does that answer?
Annalee Cate 46:58
Absolutely, that's great. Yeah, maybe
Spencer 46:59
I'll tell a story too that will hopefully be helpful, as everyone's just trying to understand what this is. Yes, so I attend a policy summit in DC once a year where a number of our US senators come and talk about cryptocurrency and Bitcoin, and it's always just an amazing moment, because, you know, the average age of our US senators, is well into the 70s. So hearing this collection talk about Bitcoin to begin with is just like, Am I in the twilight zone right now? Because I'm pretty sure that all of you sitting on stage right now, we're still working to print, to PDF, like within the last 24 months. So it's an amazing moment of seeing the transformation that is happening in our society. So maybe a story or two that they brought people on stage, that was just something that I took away, and it helped me appreciate Bitcoin in a way that I hadn't thought about it as much. So they brought an individual that was from Zimbabwe, and they talked about the reality of currency issued by a government that does not have your best interest at heart. So this individual talked about how their payroll that they would receive on a Friday by the time it was Monday, would be worth massively less than what it was on Friday the runaway inflation was literally robbing them of their wages, and without Bitcoin, they truly have no escape, like no government that is inflating currency makes it Easy for you to escape that inflation. So one aspect of Bitcoin is a freedom from the government telling you what you can and cannot do with your money. Yeah, there's been examples of that that are way closer to home than Zimbabwe. Here in the United States and Canada, there have been governmental decisions to say, based upon what we believe is right or wrong, we meaning the government what we believe is right or wrong, we are going to restrict your ability to move US dollars, or move Canadian dollars from one account to another, and they have unilateral control to do that, that's terrifying, even if you agree that that particular movement of funds is not good. That's a slippery slope that is coming for. Have your political beliefs, your social credit score, things that we have no interest in having our financial freedom restricted, yes. And so what's so powerful about Bitcoin is that there is an investment element to it, right? People can buy it and speculate and hope that it goes up a lot of times it goes down, but you know, in general, it has been a good investment. But more than that, it is a financial freedom. Yeah, and the knock that I think you did a good job addressing, in response to Annaliese question of just how is it used maliciously in what people assume in answering or asking that question, is that the US dollar is the most malicious financial instrument that has ever been invented? Yes. So when you look at the criminal activity that happens with the US dollar, the paper dollar, it is magnitudes more than what Bitcoin has ever been, or arguably, will ever be. There's some like outrageous stat that one in $500 bills have trace amounts of cocaine on them here in the US. I mean, just it's used in so many ways, which doesn't mean that what bitcoin does is all good and that there's not a job to be done there, but I really do appreciate the curiosity that you bring, and that's what I hope people will hear As it relates to blockchain. And Bitcoin is a curiosity to say, let me get educated a little bit about it. Doesn't mean that I'm gonna put my life savings into it. Doesn't mean I might ever use it, but let me say no or yes from an educated frame of mind, yeah, and that it's so pivotal.
Jason Dukes 51:56
I love how you phrase that, because it's one of the things I try to say to people when they ask me about it. The first thing I say to them is the first thing you've got to do is get out of your head that this is a stock or an investment. The first thing you've got to do is realize it's currency. And the reason that's hard, I think, for people, is because they hear the stories of Doge skyrocketing and they made money, and this person became a millionaire. We've got to get all of that again. Is it a good investment? Well, it's proven to be a good investment for now, what, 13 years. So, like, that's positive, but that's not really why it was created. It wasn't created just to be an investment. It was created as a currency that allowed a more free commerce society and, and, and that concept, if you can begin to realize it's a currency, and that you really don't buy and sell it, you actually exchange for it, right? Like, if you can begin to process it like that, you start to realize, like the story you told, that the the empowering ethos of this is so significant one, like when I was writing for Tron, for example, and we did some stuff on different networks that use some of our, of our stable coin. And one particular group in Argentina, which you know, is in the press, ton, a ton about this, this subject, one particular network there that was doing contract work they began, at one point, to only receive they would say in their contract, we can only be paid in either usdt or USDC on the Tron network. And they would say that because they began to realize that every time they were being paid an Argentinian, Tinian current currency, they were losing money overnight. I mean, the way that it was inflating. And so one of them in particular, had not seen his brother for 10 years. And these are people, again, not not full access to banks and credit like we are used to in the States, and he had not seen his brother. I think it was 10 years. I could be wrong, but I think it was about 10 years. But because he was being now paid in USDC, which is a, is a crypt. It's a, it's a, a type of cryptocurrency that's more pegged to the US dollar. So there's some one to one nature to meant to be stable. Meant to be stable so hence the name stablecoin. Once he was paid in that he was able to use travala.com which was a booking site that happened to accept crypto to buy a ticket to go see his brother, who he had not seen because he couldn't afford it, couldn't buy a ticket with a credit card. Do you get what I'm saying? But this empowered him to reconnect with a family member in a way that he couldn't have done otherwise, and and because he was being now paid in cryptocurrency like that, that kind of story helps people get begin to realize, oh, oh, okay, so like, there's other there's a reason why this actually might. Matter to people, and not just to me, who can go to the bank right or to an ATM, and even now, I'm limited somewhat on what I could take out, but, yeah, but, but do you go to I'm saying like, like, like, even us who are used to some of those things, which now have more limitations than they've probably ever had for us, you can see if you're not thinking in those terms, but in the way that maybe just the average person that doesn't have that access is thinking and see how empowering it is.
Spencer 55:29
I think it's a great consistency. Annalee said this earlier that runs through your entire personality just getting to know you here in this time, you've had a lot of heavy things front to back in your life that you have had to overcome, but it allows you to speak with an authenticity into the lives of these people who literally don't have a chance of Coming back from the life that they're going into, but not for the role that you and the amazing heroes that you rightfully pointed out are there. And I think it's just really authentic to hear the story of blockchain and cryptocurrency as the financial pairing to the type of freedom that love justice is really trying to find for people. Yeah, and I just really appreciate the educational mindset that you have towards it, because there's a lot of fear related to everything you do. Everyone's afraid to ask questions. They are heartbroken by it. But a lot of times, people's response to heartbreak is, I can't turn this off fast enough. Please don't make me think about this for one more second than I have to otherwise. Yeah, so maybe where I'd like to spend our last handful of minutes is that you all are here in Tennessee. Is there intentionality behind the Tennessee placement versus being in Orlando, being in Vegas. What about the state of Tennessee? Is something that you would have our listeners come away with?
Jason Dukes 57:29
It's a great question. I mean, you know, first of all, it's just a great place to be. I mean, the Nashville area in particular, we've discovered so many people that think creatively, entrepreneurially, but also with life giving, intentionality and and so that's a huge part of of the desire to see what we do. You know, have more and more of its roots in this community. And you know, we have a board member that's an entrepreneur that's here in Nashville. We have another board member that's the head of the GMA here. It's based, you know, she lives just south of here, and, you know, and, and we have other people, one another, one of our employee, organizational employees, that's moving here to Columbia, like, you know, I mean, we're just seeing more and more of our roots and connected here and and so it's just exciting because of the nature of the spirit, the values, the the intentionality, the generosity, the creativity, the entrepreneurialism that exists in this community and and, and the beauty of that that brings when we really see it together, and we lean into it together. And like you said, that this topic is a hard topic, but if we can say, You know what, there are things we can do, we and be honest. It's okay to be honest that you don't want it ever before you, I get that like, so don't, don't let it be ever before you. That would be one of the biggest downers ever, right? Like you, like, even working in it, I have to learn, like we've talked about, I had to learn, and am having to learn, like, how to turn it on and off. But, but for those that aren't in the middle of it like that. Still like it. It's okay to be honest, that you want to turn it on and off. That's okay like but that it exists, and that we can leverage the giftedness and the resources that we have in this community to go to to attack it and to address it is really significant. And I think that's what makes us love being here in this community, where we have some in the Denver community as well. Like, there are certain aspects of those two places. We have some in the LA community as well. Like, there's certain aspects of those three places in particular, where the creativity and the the the ideology of wanting to help in a cause that matters. Right, and that brings freedom and life to people, and that's why we love having more and more of our roots here.
Spencer 1:00:08
I certainly see in Tennessee the political side of the state that squarely recognizes the importance of these issues. So Governor Lee has been a outspoken advocate, and has done some really impactful things here through Tennessee, and has supported that with real legislation behind it. And Senator Blackburn was one of the people speaking at that DC policy summit that I was at for blockchain and Bitcoin, and it's awesome to see a state like Tennessee that maybe hasn't always been thought of as a thought leader on either of these two categories, rising in yet another place of prominence that it just seems like there's something special going on in this state. I agree, not only why people are moving here, but just the way that it is becoming a leader on a national platform is really spectacular. C I agree. I agree. I'm glad you feel that way too, because it's special to have your organization here in Tennessee, of all the places that it could be. And I think maybe just to close, how for someone that is brokenhearted in hearing this, how can we support you? And I know there's no money, no mission, no mission, no money, so please talk dollars. But also, if there's other capacities in which someone comes away from this and is heartbroken, where do they go from here?
Jason Dukes 1:01:49
It's a great question. I mean, you know the obvious answer, similar even to the Bitcoin piece, right? Because I get asked all the time, like, how can nonprofits use Bitcoin? Well, even if international nonprofits just use cryptocurrency, Blockchain tech, Bitcoin, to move money internationally. They would save money on that money. Does that make sense, like in the same way? I mean, you know, from a resources standpoint, if you are broken hearted about the human trafficking issue and the injustice of it, just giving to organizations that fight it is obviously an answer. I mean, you and find one that you believe in, whether it's the preventative side, like what we do, or the rescue side or the legal side or the policies. I mean, there's, there's so many different organizations that address different issues with it, and we ally and partner and love and champion all of those, because it's such a hard fight, and we've got to be in it together. So resources, yes, like, like, you know, we you can give on our website, you can even give in crypto, but yeah, on our website, you can give crypto. You can if you live in different countries, you we have the the ability, through our technology, for you to give in multiple ways. And so we appreciate any of that giving. But if you're hearing this and you're like, Yeah, I want to give, or I will give, or I'm willing to give, but like, you know, we have volunteer roles. People sometimes take a volunteer role with us, and they might say, Well, yeah, but you're doing a lot of stuff overseas. But we're like, Yeah, but we have a robust data system, so we have volunteers that help us with that to enter data to make sure that things are correct. We have data analysts that volunteer, like some that are PhD teach professors at academic, you know, institutions that help us in that realm. So there's lots of different it doesn't just have to be one of those ways. There's a lot of different volunteer roles that we actually post on our career site, so that if you go to it and you have a certain thing that you're passionate about, or a skill that you have that you might be able to say, Yeah, I would love to volunteer in that way. But then also, like we've talked about, I mean, if you're, if you're in the tech world, and you think, man, you mentioned something, and I would love to help you get access to that tech, you know, or I'd love to help you make, I'd make an introduction to people that might help you imagine what it would look like to develop that particular resource or technology or solution. Please, like that would be amazing. And if you're out there and you're a game developer, we're going to be looking for that. Or you're a you know you're, you're or you want to help us figure out how to leverage a layer two or a layer three in cryptocurrency to be something that actually benefits philanthropy and nonprofits in a unique way, or, you know, or even some of these other tech solutions. You're a great salesman, and you want to help us white label it to you. There's all kinds of things that we can do, and that's part of the advancement role, is taking it and knowing we you people give and they do donations, but what are the more creative and innovative ways that people can be involved? And so if you have an idea like, you know, reach out, and I would love to talk about it.
Spencer 1:04:51
Jason Dukes, I understand why you are VP of advancement. That makes a lot of sense given our conversation. Thank you for being here today.
Jason Dukes 1:04:59
Thank you so much. It. Is a joy to be with both of you.
Annalee Cate 1:05:01
Thank you.
Spencer 1:05:08
Lee, we just finished with Jason Dukes for love justice International, and it really was like two, two sessions, conversations. Yeah, it was an important distinction that he made is that, you know, sex trafficking gets a lot of the compensation, but he continued to talk about human trafficking, right, and the work that they're doing to catch it at the start, yeah, because it was a sobering stat, I took away that he said less than half of 1% of those that are rescued have real opportunity for normalcy on the other side of it, which you totally makes sense.
Annalee Cate 1:05:49
Yeah, it's discouraging, but it is,
Spencer 1:05:53
And I wonder how organizations that do rescue people out of that? Feel about that staff, because it just shows the magnitude of what's at stake in these critical transportation junctions. I mean, that's what he listed, bus stations, train stations, airports. That's the moment by the time they get through that, it's, it's in many ways over right, which, wow, it's just a lot to take in,
Annalee Cate 1:06:30
Yeah, and it does. It highlights. I think it's easy to focus when the topic comes up on the the gravity of of what it means, but the trafficking part and that movement and that transit and how critical of an infrastructure that plays, and we've talked about this with the interstate system, you know, for Tennessee, but understanding the transit component and then attacking it from that, I thought was incredibly innovative and and it Just the ability to actually impact that problem more aggressively, is very cool with how they're approaching it.
Spencer 1:07:05
I was wondering if the interstate system of Tennessee was going to come up in his discussion, because for those that don't know, you know Tennessee is in the top 10 states, or however you want to look at it, bottom 10, top 10, but there's a lot of human trafficking that happens in Tennessee because of the intersection of 65 and 40, and it's a huge juncture that people come into Tennessee. And there is that window, and I think that window is still in that transportation part that that upstream, as Jason called it, before they're making it to the final destination, where they're ultimately trapped and it's much harder to get them out of that place.
Annalee Cate 1:07:51
Yeah, I'd love to see an exploration of that, like what they're applying at a really international level. I'd love to see an exploration of how that could even be used domestically and in Tennessee too.
Spencer 1:08:01
I thought you had a good point in highlighting the fact that job postings were a real avenue for how people fall into this is that it's so sad that someone grasping to work
Annalee Cate 1:08:19
Hope and get themselves out, yeah?
Spencer 1:08:23
I mean, it's like, that's the moment that they're striving
Annalee Cate 1:08:26
Peak vulnerability too, yeah.
Spencer 1:08:29
And it does make sense that, you know, we take it for granted, but we receive those emails, right? That are just, you know, a warlord in Africa needs 10 million and they want to send you $200,000 as part of that, and we detect that, know quickly that, okay, this is a scam, but those scams work on people all the time. Yeah, it is, and the scams are getting more sophisticated. I mean, AI is able to imitate your voice. It's able to replicate things that have even tricked some of the people in our own organization, that they'll send us a fake invoice that looks super real, and they hope that your accounts payable, part of your company will just pay it, because, yeah, that looks like an invoice that we process all the time.
Annalee Cate 1:09:22
I think it's the advancement concept I love, because what we see is some of the threats that technology is bringing. But if you don't have someone essentially trying to get upstream of those same problems and creating and leveraging that technology to create preventative measures and solutions to fight those threats. How much worse it could be. I think the other thing I was really fascinated by and thinking about after this is not only the impact it has in this industry through that nonprofit, but with the conversation we were having around. Uh, charitable giving for nonprofits, but also for churches. The integration of blockchain technology into that is huge, because I'll admit, you know, I have found myself more and more kind of than ever in those moments. You know, when you're at the cash register and it's like, you want to give an extra dollar, do you want to donate to this cause? And thinking, Where is this really going, and who's, you know, who's making this decision? Like, I think I'm just gonna skip it, yeah, and that transparency could be revolutionary from a charitable giving perspective.
Spencer 1:10:34
I got to tell one story as it related to the blockchain, because what you're highlighting there is that blockchain is what's called an open ledger, which means that every transaction is visible and searchable. Right now, the parties themselves are anonymized, so like, if I sent you Bitcoin, you're going to have a wallet ID that's going to be a long string of numbers and characters that to an outside viewer, they'd have no idea was your wallet and my wallet will have the same but the transaction going from me to you will be searchable and visible forever, the dollar amount, all of it. So what Jason was talking about is that if your real aspiration is to do evil stuff, doing it on an open ledger that's infinitely and permanently searchable, not ideal, yeah, not awesome, because The key aspect is that if a governmental organization can, through a subpoena or by arresting you, find your wallet ID and you're a criminal, then that's the type of web that Jason was talking about. Okay, who's everyone that has sent this money or any money to this wallet ID? Yeah, because probably not a lot of great things were happening from money coming into here, and they start pulling on that thread, which is a really good check and balance for what a lot of people think Bitcoin, it's just entirely anonymous. The US Dollar is entirely anonymous. Yeah. I mean, when I give you a paper dollar, there is no trace of where that came from or where it's going. It's not like people are often sending wire transfers,
Annalee Cate 1:12:28
right? Pay me in cash. Pay me, yeah, yeah.
Spencer 1:12:33
I just reflect on one other story. I got to tell one story in the podcast, but I heard one other incredible young woman from Iran that has a passion for educating women throughout the country, and if she wanted to use the native currency there, that would be absolutely prohibited, and she could be executed. I mean, no joke, executed for trying to educate and teach young woman. So instead, she's been able to run her entire business and charitable side of it via Bitcoin, and able to pay for services, pay payroll, and stay entirely out of the purview of having to go to a bank and open an account, which any given morning, could be frozen. Her assets could be seized. They could figure out what she's doing. She could be arrested. And so there are these incredible stories of empowerment that some of them feel like a world away. You know, you hear the stories in Iran. You hear about runaway inflation, right? Some people here in the US are like, well,
Annalee Cate 1:13:48
That's not as far away as what doesn't sound Yeah.
Spencer 1:13:51
That's it a little closer to home. And you saw some of the stuff during covid, where, if you donated to the Canadian truckers that were part of the movement during that season, then you personally were financially targeted, and in some cases, your assets were seized. There is a season where that's coming here in the United States, and I don't know if it's five years from now, 50 years from now, or 500 years from now, but it's coming, and I think the mindset of being thoughtful and educated is so important, right? Because if you decide it's not for you, fine, but please don't ignore it and not have an educated viewpoint, so that if situations do change and you're like, you know this actually would be really beneficial now you're already more educated about it, and you're not starting from zero.
Annalee Cate 1:14:48
That's right. I think in with with the we have so many wonderful things here in Tennessee and living in this state, I think we have so many privileges, but it's seeing and. Interacting with people like Jason, who are getting out into the world and seeing things in some ways well before they may ever make it here, if we don't reach out and do that, and like you said, educate ourselves, I think we could be jeopardizing a lot of the comforts and the protections and the freedoms that we currently have, if we don't really open our minds to that.
Spencer 1:15:23
Yeah, I think Jason sets a good standard. He's a classic early adopter in his profile. He owns an iPhone one. Yeah, owns an iPhone one. I mean, that is incredible that he is in the right if
Annalee Cate 1:15:39
he held that, it might be as valuable as crypto.
Spencer 1:15:44
There is so much to be learned from the forward thinkers among us. Is that sometimes the ideas are crazy and they never get adopted, and you just got to take that. That's part of it. But sometimes there are ideas that really do change your life, and you just don't realize it until five or 10 or 15 years from now. Absolutely it was a privilege to have on and what a great guy that deals with some tough stuff but finds a way to still communicate it in a way that the rest of us can feel like, wow. I don't know if I am called to that role, but thank goodness Jason is.
