James Evans on Outdoor Adventure Ministry
A benchmark is a tiny symbol on a geographic map, a known point, that allows travelers to place themselves in the world in relation to all that’s around them.
With Benchmark Adventure Ministries, James Evans offers those with military backgrounds a chance to reflect on their lives and future goals. In this episode, Evans discusses the genesis of Benchmark, its goals, and its transformative impact with Spencer and Annalee.
About James Evans
James Evan is the founder of BENCHMARK, a Christian organization designing interactive and outdoor adventure experiences. James describes himself as a “hard-headed, imperfect follower of Jesus Christ,” boasting a rich tapestry of life experiences. A seasoned Bible teacher, James thrives in the great outdoors as a backpacker, paddler, climber, and marathon runner. Alongside his wife, Barbara, James has called Nashville, Tennessee, home since 1988, all while pursuing his passion for home improvement projects.
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Benchmark Adventure Ministries
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Spencer 00:06
James Evans, welcome to signature required. You're the founder of Benchmark Adventure Ministries, and we're excited to have you today.
James Evans 00:15
Thank you for having me here.
Spencer 00:16
This will be a fun session. As First off, we need to learn what Benchmark Adventure Ministries is all about. I had some time reading your website and learning all about what a Benchmark is, and there was like way more to it, a ton. So I feel like the audience needs to hear pretty immediately what that is. So maybe just take a moment and tell us what you do and teach us about a benchmark.
James Evans 00:40
Okay, so I'll start with the Benchmark. If that's okay, let's do it. So a Benchmark is a small geographic symbol on a map. It's a it's a tiny little symbol on a geographic map. Sorry, better stated. So in the real world, those are known points. So the United States Geological Survey puts these markers all over the place. They're on mountains, they're in cities, they're all over the place. And when you get to that particular point, you know where you are. So if I do some mapping, compass work, so with a topographic map. And so if, by chance, I have a topographic map, and I think, Oh, I think I'm about here on this particular location on the planet, but I get to a Benchmark symbol, I don't have to guess anymore where I am, or a Benchmark marker, I don't have to guess where I am anymore. I know where I am. So the idea is for Benchmark to be a known point for a person, it's not that we think that the events that we do are the latest greatest, most wonderful event that anyone has ever done, but normally it's the most recent one. And we try to give people an opportunity to assess where they are at a given point, at that particular point.
Spencer 01:59
I like how you present that, that just comes off very philosophical in just how you present it. It is really meaningful. I also liked the part where there's a horizontal element to it and also a vertical element to it. Will you give us that part too?
James Evans 02:16
Sure, even on the topographic map, when you look at this, it's a flat piece of paper, but the location that benchmark, if you will, it has a reference to other places around it, a stream, a creek, a mountain, a city, a path, so on the on the horizontal plane, then our hope is that we can help people assess where they are in their day to day horizontal relationships with people. That point is also known vertically. So it's out its elevation is known. So it might be 6000 feet or 505 115 feet, but it's known, and it's usually referenced on a topographic map. So when you get there, you also have a reference vertically. So that's one piece. In the 1990s I led long wilderness trips, and a long wilderness trip is between 16 and 19 days long, wow.
Spencer 03:14
So I'd be in the woods without a really long wilderness trips. They were long, long, long, wild wilderness.
James Evans 03:20
They were wonderful. We backpacked and climbed and repelled and canoed and did map and compass work. So you have a map and you have a group, and here we go. So finding a route is important, and finding understanding where you are as well as you can understand it now is important, and then also in those early 90s, I after I finished college, and after I finished grad school, I took a college I audited a college theology class and listened to the lessons that were being taught there. And there's all sorts of things that are in threes, all sorts of wonderful things that are in threes. Lots of times, a pastor's sermon will have three points. I don't know why they're stuck on three, but they just are. So those three points. So for instance, a human being is a thinking feeling, acting, being there. It is, thinking, feeling, acting, we think with our mind, we feel with our heart, as it were, and we act with our will. And so I wanted to be a person as I as I started thinking about this triangle with a.in the middle of it's like thinking, feeling, acting, a human being thinks, wills, acts and as a follower of Jesus, I want my center to be Christ. And isn't always because I'm very selfish, but I want that to be the center. So I'm thinking about, how can I have Christ as the center and be a thinking figure? Healing, acting human being. So that was one of those ideas.
Annalee Cate 05:04
James, before we really get into Benchmark, I want to take it back. It sounds like you have, you know, grown up outdoors in nature. Can we go back to the beginning a little bit with your story and kind of how you got started, just as an adventurer, and then, and then see how that progresses into benchmark.
James Evans 05:22
I'm going to say to you what I say to everyone. I was born at a very early age.
Spencer 05:31
He was not going to continue until welcome,
James Evans 05:36
And that pause is what I just love to watch people watch it dawn on them. Yeah. What did he just say? Yeah, of course. He was born in a very early age. So you're welcome. So I was born a little born in Savannah, Georgia, grew up in a little small town called Jessup, which is about 70 miles from from Jessup is about 70 miles from Savannah, and my parents got married when I was before I was born, and here they are trying to make a home in this little town. And then when I was about five years old, we moved to two acres of land outside of this already small town. In time, I got to wander through the woods all around our house. And as I got older, I could go wherever I wanted to through the woods. I was in the boy scouts when I was a kid, which helped. And then my dad, of course, not, of course, but my dad hunted and fished, and so very young, I started fishing. I had a BB gun when I was early. All of that was very normal, a bow and arrow when I was young, all of those under guidance, but that's how I got experience. And I could, at, you know, by the time I was in middle school or a little older, I could, I could pull whatever weapon I wanted to out of our house and go within reasonable bounds around our house and shoot whatever was in limits and hunt whatever was legal.
Spencer 06:59
When you think about the influence clearly that the wilderness has had your entire life on you, is that it's part, as I understand it, of what Benchmark does and leads with is outdoor physical activity. So just give us the two minute elevator pitch on what Benchmark is, and then we'll see if we can tie that thread between your experience and what Benchmark does. All right.
James Evans 07:27
So Benchmark began as an organization to be an adventure arm, really, of local churches. So based on my experience, based on my education, I really saw a need in local churches to utilize the outdoors more, not as an ugly tool or an ugly classroom, but as an opportunity to see the world in very different ways. So early on, that was really the hope and experience. Did some of that, and worked with other camps and facilities, and really interested in the ideas of leadership development and spiritual development, or spiritual growth and development. So merging those, those ideas as well, was was wonderful. You have folks who would be in a in a Sunday school setting, and my wife and I taught Sunday school for 16 years, and those are very valuable experiences for a group of students, high school students is who we taught for them to come on a weekly basis or as often as they would, and to learn the word of God and to think about how it would impact the way they live on a daily basis. It's a very different thing when you provide people an opportunity to experience that and to practice that in a potentially difficult or uncomfortable setting, and so it helps to apply what can be learned in a church or in a Sunday school setting. It's like, How now, what does this idea mean here? What does it mean to be kind to someone else when I'm uncomfortable, when I'm irritable, when it's hot, when it's particularly cold, or it's not the food I want. What does it mean to be kind then? And so that's something I continue to practice, because life is uncomfortable. Life is uncomfortable, and at times the setting is uncomfortable. So how do I try to practice kindness when sometimes I don't want to be kind.
Annalee Cate 09:23
Wow. It's it that's so interesting, because I think just hearing you talk about that and that comfort in a space like that, it sounds like a part of your inspiration was really trying to put people in difficult situations, basically to test principles that they're learning in a controlled environment is that, was that accurate? Am I saying that back accurately?
James Evans 09:45
You're doing very well, and maybe not completely controlled circumstances, because none of us control the weather, yeah, none of us control what we step into. We don't control the water flow. We don't control a rock face. That's. Not where the where the handholds are, not exactly where I want them to be. They are where they are. So now, what am I going to do with what is, as opposed to what I would like to be?
Spencer 10:13
And so just to round out benchmark, you're going to approach church congregations throughout Tennessee or Middle Tennessee, say, Hey, do you have an interest in a wilderness offering experience for your congregation? And that's something that you can lead for the church, is that fully kind of encompass the design of Benchmark and how you're approaching the kind of offering that you have in the early years.
James Evans 10:41
That was the way it was all right. So bring us forward very much in the early years and now over the last 12 or so, 14 years. Now, in the about 14 years we we almost exclusively partner with the United States Army chaplains. So it came from that relationship developed because of someone who actually went on a long wilderness trip with a different organization.
Annalee Cate 11:08
I think you mean long, long, long.
James Evans 11:11
I've heard it called Long. And I met a young man who had prior service in the Marine Corps, and he was coming on a long wilderness trip to get some experience and to test his mettle, if you will, but also to think about his previous life as a Marine Corvette and to learn as well, to be a wilderness instructor as well for that summer. So he came on my trip, and we struck up a relationship and a companionship, and then later on, he became a United States Army chaplain. So it was through that relationship, he calls me up one day. He had been deployed for 15 or 16 months back a number of years ago in the late oh nine, oh 10 or oh nine and 10, and he called me. He's like, Hey, James, I'm coming to Fort Campbell. I'd like for us to do ministry together. I'd like for us to influence people together. And I'm like, Great, let's do and so because of the tempo of his particular unit, it took some time for us to get some things going, but we did a few events together while he was there. And from that particular relationship it's developed to all the opportunities that we have now as an organization to partner with chaplains to serve the soldiers they serve.
Spencer 12:30
What was the perceived need from that first conversation with a chaplain to say, hey, we need something like this. What was communicated to where this would be assault.
James Evans 12:40
So then there were a large number of military people in all branches of service who were on pretty significant deployment regiments. They were in and out or also on very long deployments. So they would be separated from the normal families. They'd be separated from their regular relationships. And they would be, they would be in harsh circumstances, more harsh than we would even attempt to duplicate as an organization now. So the idea was helping folks to figure out where they are now, back to that Benchmark like this is where you've been. This is what you've been doing. Where you are now. Where are you now? Where's your heart, where's your head, what's your mental state? Without specifically putting a finger on it, but asking guiding questions and trying to develop a relationship, to get men and women to consider where they really are right now based on where they've been. It's an away of them as a way for them to assess where they are, without me trying to tell them where they are, since I don't, couldn't possibly understand fully where they are.
Spencer 13:54
Do you have a background in therapy or any formal training?
James Evans 13:59
I do not have background in therapy, my formal training would be in education. So both undergrad and graduate school, an undergraduate degree in Christian education and then a graduate degree in educational ministries. So it really is influenced by philosophy and theology and psychology, but not specifically a therapy degree.
Spencer 14:27
What's the distinction between Christian education and theology?
James Evans 14:33
Wow, so good question. So Christian education would be taking theological ideas and helping people to learn how to live those out. So theology would be the study of God, if you will, in particular, and then all aspects of that. And so Christian education, or educational ministries, would be now based on what. We understand about who God is, what he expects, what He desires for us, how He loves us and cares for us. How do I live that out in a daily in daily life?
Spencer 15:10
That makes perfect sense, because it's it's funny. This is what I love about the Lord, is that the way that he's created each of us, just in this 15 minutes together, I have not yet been able to lower my resting heart rate to even like half of where yours sit. And it's part of just what I love about the Lord is that he's made each of us so unique and so distinct that the pathway that you have walked in Christian education as how you described it, is a perfect descriptor of what this ministry as I'm learning It is all about. It's taking biblical concepts that can be understood best by some in the wilderness, by some, yes, and especially for those with a military calling or a military background, whose experience with life has been much more physical in nature and more mental than they ever realize, right? And that's, I think, some of the damage that happens, that only gets revealed down the road is that this experience is addressing it in a place that's perhaps more comfortable for some. That's fascinating. I really appreciate. I feel like that gets to the heart of the matter for Benchmark to understand the distinction between Christian education and theology.
James Evans 16:55
That was well said, and the and the key is experiential. Yeah, the key is living it out. The key is, how does this affect the way I live these ideas that I think on a philosophic level, theological level, how do I live those out in practically, day by day? How does it affect my choices.
Annalee Cate 17:22
Do you find that most of your participants are in any particular place on their spiritual journey, like do you? Do you have a lot of groups coming that maybe are new, or would you say, kind of active, regularly engaged in church communities? What's the typical that what you see.
James Evans 17:40
In partnering with a military chaplain, that Chaplain serves people from a broad range of faith traditions. So those people will be invited to a particular to this adventure event, and so they're welcome to come understanding that the chaplain is there to serve them whatever their faith tradition is. So people are all across the religious spectrum, and all along their desire to be engaged in that. So there would be some folks who would be Christian, and some people who used to be Christian, and some people who aren't sure they want to be Christian, and I understand that. And there are people who haven't had a faith background at all and aren't interested in a conversation at all. They want to go whitewater rafting, which is okay, because part of that, part of that hope is that they will encounter a chaplain who cares about them and wants the best for them, and they'll get to know this. This Chaplain is someone who also plays and also appreciates who they are as a person, and wants to get to know them, so that, in the event, if there's something in particularly hits the fam fan, and for all of us, something eventually will hit the fan, then they'll get to know someone that they perhaps can go to. So in our chaplains partnership initiative, our hope is that we are helping to develop those relationships.
Annalee Cate 19:09
So the chaplains traditionally participate too. They do, and there's like an entire society outdoor chaplains that are out there braving wilderness adventures for their that's incredible. I would have never guessed that's amazing.
James Evans 19:22
Well, they're just unit. They're just unit chaplains who have a responsibility to care for between 608 100 soldiers plus their family members. And there's a chaplain and a religious affairs specialist, and that's it. So we come alongside and add a layer of support, exactly partner with them to carry out activities and events that are helpful for them as they try to serve Christians, non Christians and everything in between.
Spencer 19:54
Are you going on a lot of these excursions yourself? What is your staff? And team look like?
James Evans 20:01
It is my privilege to get to go on these it's my hope to continue to do that way into the future, because all the administrative work and calendaring and organizing, all of that's the stuff that needs to get done in order to get to be around people. So the opportunity to be with soldiers and partner with chaplains is is a rich joy. So to be able to do that is exactly what I want to do. Our staff is very small. We've only had two and a half full time staff people over the life, life of benchmarks, organizational life, and we had a staff person who left last June, so now it's just a single, full time staff person and a part time communications person and a good group of volunteers who help in lots of ways, very often going on an event with us.
Annalee Cate 20:56
And is it typical that the attendees are you pulling from a unit where they know each other, or they have no prior relationships, and you're pulling from all over the place, and so you're kind of building a new community.
James Evans 21:08
Yes, both of those, because in a unit that has six to 800 people and the chaplains reaching out to a particular to this group of people, they may know each other very well. There might be two or three folks soldiers who know each other very well, but it's likely that they don't know that person from that particular company or that particular shop. We do our very best to create a setting so that they get to know each other. They get to know their names. They don't know each other's they don't know each other's first names.
Annalee Cate 21:37
Yeah, I was gonna say they only know each other.
James Evans 21:42
I'm married to a former Marine, always a Marine. Yes, they only know each other's last names, and so they're right, your name's what. I never what. I never knew that. So that's fun. Yeah, the first evening, it's getting people to even learn each other's names. So that's, that's fun. So it's, I mean, doesn't most relationships start with learning people's name, right? So it's basic, yeah. And then we try to build from that, from doing meal preparation together, having family meals together around the table, to dishwashing and cooking, making dessert together. So those basic things across five meals, normally, is a way that we help to build relationship with them and each other as well.
Spencer 22:29
Are you funded via nonprofit? Does the military offer any type of compensation as you're doing? How does that function work to be able to keep the lights on. Yeah.
James Evans 22:41
So Benchmark is a nonprofit, tax exempt nonprofit, so we are able to take donations, and about a third of our budget is is donor funded, and then about two thirds of our work is fee for service, work partnering with chaplains, and couldn't do one without the other.
Spencer 23:02
Frankly, of the donors, who in particular, do you find that you're connecting with that this mission hits their heartstrings, it adds value in a way that is clear for them to open their wallet and support.
James Evans 23:25
I think the majority of our donors are people, first of all, who care about people. They're interested in the best for someone else, and very often it's a relationship with Christ that they hope for them. It doesn't mean that that will happen for everyone we serve, by any means, but they think that that's a part of the peace. And so as an organization, we're trying to represent a as an organization, we're trying to represent a relationship with Christ, but not to force that down anyone's throat. So our donors appreciate that representation, and they also appreciate that we're not forcing it down someone's throat. And then there are folks who are patriotic, and they understand what has happened to families and to soldiers as they fought our wars, and they want to be helpful in any way they can, and they, I think, as well, they may see that Benchmark is a part of trying to work upstream stream of difficulties. We're trying to help them to begin a process of assessing where they are, thinking about how they live life. Instead of moving from one thing to the next and just to the next to the next, it's like, where am I now? And if I keep doing this, where will it take me in the future? If I stay on the path that I'm on, whatever path that is, will it take me where I want to go? And so trying to ask them those sorts of questions, even if they're not at all in. Interested in a relationship with Christ, hopefully plants in their mind an assessment tool, an assessment idea to think about how they're living life and where it will take them.
Annalee Cate 25:13
I love that upstream concept. One, it's just beautifully appropriate for an outdoors adventure organization, but it's something we've talked about a little bit recently. And, you know, we've talked to a lot of folks, and have experience with folks that are helping solve some of those problems. We talk about manifesting for military families after they manifest, and some of the repercussions and outcomes, but we haven't talked a lot about how you get upstream of that and prevention strategies and so that that's, I think, really beautiful in what your organization's doing.
James Evans 25:47
I'm so thankful for just here in Middle Tennessee and Tennessee, the number of organizations that are caring for prior service military for their families, and the impact of their service and how it's worked itself out. And there's families. I'm so very thankful for that, and I'm also thankful for those partnering with a chaplain who is trying to care for people while they are serving. And we're very thankful to be able to be involved in that.
Spencer 26:17
One of the challenges that I see from small nonprofits is they make such an impact a lot of times because the founder is front and center and remains front and center for the duration of the Ministry for the efforts, the quality stays incredibly high. But one of the challenges is that the data to represent. Here's what we're doing. Oftentimes gets lost in the hustle of just getting ready for the next event, trying to fill a staff person and just make ends meet. Have you been able to capture some data of benchmarks impact, whether it's lives brought to Christ or people served. Is that something that you've been able to do in part or in full over time?
James Evans 27:10
In part? Okay, in part. I have a an Excel file that lists income expenses, things that we've sold, number of people we've served, except for the first three years, when I wasn't keeping very good. But I go to that Excel file periodically, even with our board, and I look at it because of the data that is there in numbers, the number of ministry events we've done, the number of people we've served, so that's at least a point of contact, though it doesn't tell the full story. Of course, we also do a an evaluation at the end of most every one of our events. We're teaching something called benchmarks r3 toward resilience. So we're teaching a resilience based curriculum to try to help them to think about how they can live a more resilient life. Then the spiritual component is certainly part of that. So we're asking them to assess their life, and then we're asking them at the end of that. So now, what do you think answer these few questions and give us an idea of where you are now based on what you've experienced here, we would like to be able to do a better study. And there are some opportunities through a nonprofit called Mission increase that we have an opportunity to partner with them, but we're just not staffed well enough to take that step yet,
Annalee Cate 28:41
Where does that resilience piece come from, or originate in terms of the curriculum and not being a driving force for what you're trying to teach?
James Evans 28:50
One of the ways I would describe it is that very often I'm talking to young men and women who are 1/3 of my age. I'm getting to share life with them, and I'm still pretty active at my age, at my advanced age, and so I am not the living, breathing example of resilience, that's for sure. But what I do encourage those young men and women to do is to consider what I'm saying, not because I'm older than they are, but because I've made more mistakes than they have, and I'm still here living it out. And so I'm asking them to consider the mistakes they've made as well, and to learn from those, and to gain experience from those, and then to live that out to a great deal, to a great degree. That's what resilience is. It's taking a hit, which we all will do, learning from it, and then moving on from it.
Spencer 29:51
One of the things that we ask every guest to do is to bring a couple things that show their person. Personality that shows something that they would want to communicate to the audience. So we've got a couple things positioned behind us, so maybe take a moment and tell us about the things that you brought and why?
James Evans 30:11
Sure, I'll start with the rock. Okay, because the rock is almost perfectly round. It has absolutely nothing to do with the person who owns that rock. Now, because I am not perfectly round, there is nothing about me that's perfectly round. Found that rock while I was in our in our first year of marriage, while I was working at a camp here in in Middle Tennessee, and was taking some kids on a hike. It's hot that particular summer, lots of temperatures above 100 degrees, and I'm walking along this creek bed where some water overflows from time to time, and kicking up rocks and doing whatever you do with a bunch of kids on the hike, trying to get them to pay attention to what's around them. And I kicked up this rock, and my eyes got very big, very big because usually there are rocks in Middle Tennessee, they're kind of round and they'll have some particular imperfection on them, and they're fine. That's all right. Sometimes they were used previously as cannonballs, yeah. So those are, those are pretty, pretty neat to see. And this one as I picked it up and I started brushing the dirt off from it, my eyes just kept getting bigger, because that rock has only been washed. I haven't chiseled it, hadn't sanded it, haven't tried to do anything other, other than just appreciate it. And so for me, it's just beauty, simple beauty, a rock, and it sits in my office and I like it still, after 36 plus years of it being around.
Spencer 31:49
That’s amazing. Good story on the rock. Questions about how we would know if it was used as a cannonball, because that would change the message of the beauty.
James Evans 31:58
It probably would, and likely, if it was used as a cannonball, it would have a significant imperfection.
Spencer 32:03
I think that's probably a valid point.
Annalee Cate 32:09
James, how do you go about choosing a new adventure? How do you find or identify what the right adventure for a group is.
James Evans 32:18
Really is in it's in consultation with that chaplain. We have a good number, we have a good list of things that we can do, which range from backpacking, which often soldiers will do and they don't really want to do that much more of it. That's what I was thinking whitewater raft, snowboard and snow, ski and I do not snowboard. And do skiing. Very ugly, very ugly. So we create opportunities for other people to snowboard and snow, ski. We see kayak and canoe, rock climb, deep sea fishing. So we have a good variety of things that we can we can engage people in, and then we'll also have other people involved that have particular skills and can bring the tools to do archery. We have an 80 year old friend who uses BB guns to teach people how to shoot better and more accurately with a BB gun that has no sights on it, it's wonderful. And so children as well are taught how to shoot a BB gun and shoot with more accuracy and slow down and pay attention. So we have a good list of items that we can help a chaplain choose from. It's also trying to dial into where this particular Chaplain is and what is available within a particular travel radius for them. And so that's where the customization comes in. What would you like to do? Well, there's not deep sea fishing within three hours of Fort Campbell, Kentucky. We need to make another choice.
Annalee Cate 33:59
And how often are you incorporating or do you have experiences where you're incorporating the service members' families into the excursions as well?
James Evans 34:07
We do maybe three or four of those events a year where service members either the parent, would be a parent and a child. Often it's a man and his child or children, male and female children, but we have two events on our schedule this year so far that will be family members and their children. And so the shift is less about resilience, which is which we do teach across the board, but it really is more about helping them to develop great memories together, because a service member is traveling, is training, is not home very often. And so if we can bring them together, getting to know a chaplain and doing things that help those families, have good event, have have good memories, and share those memories together, then we've done we're pointed in the right direction. On. That, and selfies are absolutely welcome, encouraged. And sometimes we do scavenger hunts where that's how they get more pictures, if they're doing a scavenger hunt with their kids. So we do, we do as well, do ministry events with family members, as the chaplain wishes.
Spencer 35:22
James, we've got about 10 minutes or so left, and I just feel compelled to kind of take you into a philosophy corner for the final 10 minutes. So will you come with me to a philosophy corner for a second? I feel like you can handle that really well.
James Evans 35:37
I'll do my best.
Spencer 35:38
I can just see, like James around a campfire somewhere in the wilderness, way beyond where most people go, and you'd be right at home, right there to talk that through. So I have a couple questions for you, because you're a really unique soul. Like just to spend an hour with you. I get to meet a lot of people all over the world, and I can only count on a couple fingers, perhaps someone that has the disposition that you do, and maybe for the audience, you just kind of have to be here next to you to entirely feel it. And I know on some level that there is a spiritual component to that, right? There is a peace that the Lord gives those that are on mission and doing what they are put on this planet to do, and I very much sense that that is you, like you are obeying the calling that is uniquely on your life, and it's interesting to be here and feel how that makes me feel sitting next to you. So I have a couple questions as it relates to that. One, as you were telling us a story about the walking stick, you commented that as a young man, sometimes you would rush through things and maybe not spend the time on it that you should have. And I couldn't help but laugh on the inside, because there's a part of me that doesn't feel like you've rushed through anything in your entire life just because of the cadence of how you talk and what you feel. So I also know, though, that you have matured tremendously through the years. We're always in a process of maturing. So what did you reflect on from your time as a young man to where you are today, and maybe how you interact with the soldiers that you serve that has brought you to this place of being much more patient and contemplative, perhaps, of how you spend your time.
James Evans 37:53
Well, my mind's racing through all sorts of things, because, on the one hand, I want to be silly, but I'll try not to be.
Spencer 37:58
I can handle that too. I like give us both.
James Evans 38:03
I am awful lot like a middle schooler, because I am fast and slow, and then I need to take a nap. Okay, so at times, I talk very fast, and people can't keep up. They can't pay attention to my thought processes. My parents got that when I was young. I can, like, roll through ideas really quickly, and let's go, let's go. Why aren't we moving? I can do that. Yeah, okay. And do that all the time. And people are like, what if I can do that? Sometimes my experience necessitates I'll tell people from time to time, like, we're just here together, and everything's fine. You don't have to hurry up, because very often their lives are very much in a hurry all the time. And I'll let you know when it's time to run. And if I say run, it's time to run.
Spencer 38:53
If you said run out of wilderness, James, I tell you I could not possibly run faster, because whatever is making you say, Run. Oh, man, sorry, that was me being silly for a moment.
James Evans 39:05
I completely understand that. Yeah, you completely understand what I mean, because that's what I mean. Yeah, it's time to go. Why are we standing here? And there's been a few circumstances, situations in the past where I've been we hike into the middle of a yellow jackets nest, and people are swatting. They're swatting and they're standing there and they're swatting and I'm yelling, run, and they're not like, run that run now, because you need to get away from them. So sometimes we do need to run and sometimes we need to talk fast. I think, again, I think it's has to do with relationships. It's, it's a long term marriage. My wife and I have been married for 36 years. 36 years, if I can make it to June the fourth of this year, then it'll be 37 years. So it's, it's one. Watching her and seeing how she interacts with me, and trying to understand what she needs from me, and trying to be responsive as a husband, and I haven't always done such a good job of that, but sometimes I just need to slow down. And then at times, she also is very willing for me to just go at whatever speed I need to go at. And so to have that kind of long term relationship where fast and slow are both okay, it depends on the setting, and to have lots of grace and forgiveness where I've not been fast in the right moments and slow at the right moments has helped. It's trying to slow my own heart down as well and my own head down, because what I want to do is go, go, go, go. But it's not healthy, and those spiritual disciplines are helpful. Staying off of social media is helpful. Taking time to look people in the eye and listen to what they're saying and watch their lips move is helpful, and maybe as well understanding that in the current opportunity that we have to partner with chaplains to serve soldiers. I may only have that moment once in my life. I may never, ever see that person again, and it just may mean that our paths won't cross again or something. They'll get out of the service. I'll never have that opportunity again, but to work at a pace that I need to work at in order to get things done. But when someone speaks to me, to turn and look them in the eye and to try to pay attention to everything that they are saying for as long as they are saying it, and I'm still practicing that with my wife and our kids, because I don't do that well all the time.
Spencer 42:05
That makes a lot of sense. James, I what I hear in that too, is you have really learned discernment over a span of decades, to discern the times, to be present and be still, and the times to be active and move. And that's something that you only learn. I think, through accumulated scar tissue, you think you're right. Experience it largely in ways that you screw it up, and then come back and say, I think I screwed that up. And around 100%
James Evans 42:53
I screwed that up, yeah? And at times I don't want to own that, yeah.
Spencer 42:58
I have one more for you, and then I'll relinquish the mic to Annalee to bring us home. So I'm really curious, when you're working with these service members that are, as you said, a third your age, to spend much time around you is to notice that you're very different in a good way, a unique way, in just the presence that you bring, and sometimes in my own way, I'll have that same interaction with people that come into my world, that they'll ask me a couple questions as people are just trying to figure out, like, Who exactly are you Spencer? Because I'm having a hard time piecing this together, and the questions that I get asked are a lot of times the very same questions as people are searching for how to like properly. Put me in a place that makes sense when you're spending time around these service members, around people considering supporting your nonprofit. What are the couple questions that people ask you as they're noticing something distinct about you? What do you consistently get asked to help people better understand who you are?
James Evans 44:21
In in most cases, the people who come to a particular event that we're a part of it, they're not quite sure what they walked into. They come to an event, they meet this guy, or they meet a staff person, or they meet a volunteer, and they're like, Okay, well, we're gonna go white water rafting tomorrow, but I don't really know what else, what's going to happen. And so from the time I first lay eyes on them, I'm trying to get to know their names. I'm trying to interact with them. I'm trying to kid with them. We live in a very serious world, and I'm trying to start out by saying something like, are you where you're supposed to be? And they'll look at me. Like, like, where are you? Where'd you come from? They don't know me. They don't know me at all. And there's some old guy asking them crazy questions, like, are you in the right place? I mean, I will yell this across the parking lot, are you in the right place? And they'll go, I think I am.
Spencer 45:15
There's more depth to that question than meets the eye.
Annalee Cate 45:19
Yes,
James Evans 45:22
but I'm just trying to start interacting with them. And then when I get the first opportunity and get the group together, I think it's terribly helpful for them to have an introduction that has some context, because they don't know who I am, they don't know where I came from. And it starts with, Hi, my name is James. The most important thing you need to know about me is that I am an imperfect, hard headed follower of Jesus, and I'm not here to push that down your throat, and that's just the start of the introduction. Because people need a context. It doesn't matter so much if they agree with it or disagree with it at the time, like, Who is this person? And so I try to be upfront. I'm not trying to sneak up on anybody that I am a follower of Jesus, and it's okay if you aren't, but this is part of what shapes my life, and I'm hard headed. It won't take you long to figure that out, and it won't take you long to figure out that I'm imperfect, and that candor, I think, helps, yeah,
Annalee Cate 46:33
James, when you think about bringing service members out into the experiences that you lead them into. And I mentioned, you know, I'm married to a Marine, and so when we talk about PACE, I can relate to how high strung and intense sometimes, you know, military can be because they're forced to live in that environment. So my, my question is, for anybody that's on a journey like what you're trying to lead these servicemen and women into, it can be so hard to take that intensity down and to take the distractions and the pace away, you know, how do you start that process when you're leading a group out into the wilderness, to actually slow down and connect in that way, because it is, it's, it's hard for me to even fathom trying to get to that level of peace. But how do you help them strip that away? Just, just to be present?
James Evans 47:34
I think I have to slow down. I have to, I have to try to make on an ongoing basis. When, when do I need to pick up the pace, or when do I need to slow down and to to be measured in my words and not to be fast paced with everything, not to rush things, not to be so hard strung on a schedule that I wind them up more because they're very used to being on schedule, and I want to be on schedule, because that's what we're asked to do, is to move through a series of things in a particular time frame with a start and an end time. And so it really is looking people in the eye and slowing down and help and setting a context and saying, This is what we're here to do, and to tell them ahead of time, we don't have to be fast. We can be when we need to be, and I'll tell you if we need to be, but otherwise, take some time to slow down. Take a walk. It's okay to wash dishes like our mothers used to do. They took the time to do that, and they often would do it with someone else, and they just took they did a task, and they were there, were present. And so it's trying to trying to speak to people in a way, and trying to set a tone by myself slowing down and helping them to understand what's ahead and that we don't have to get there quickly. We plan to get there, wherever there is, but we don't have to do it now.
Annalee Cate 49:06
And do you find in a three day excursion, because I think about even just taking a vacation, that sometimes it takes me three or four days just to get off the adrenaline rush to be able to relax in a three day do you find that you can get them there. How long does it usually take to get a group to buy into that where you start to see some of those walls come down?
James Evans 49:28
Well, we're all a work in progress, aren't we?
James Evans 49:33
So we work, we do the best we can. Yeah, we do with the best we can, with the time we have. And just keep keep nudging at it. And having putting their phones away is helpful. It's okay for people to have phones. I benefit from mine, but it's but putting away those distractions, or to see someone slide up next to someone with a board game that they may not have played in a long time, and there'd be. Time to do that, to take to make us ourselves, to make ourselves slow down, we just have to the pace of life is not healthy if we're not caring for ourselves, and if we're not caring for ourselves, we certainly can't care for anyone else.
Spencer 50:22
James, I think you do a great job of modeling exactly that principle out here in the studio and just how you conduct yourself. Only having gotten to know you for a little over an hour, it's been a real pleasure. And I really do love it when I see somebody operating squarely within the gifting that God's given them. And I think that takes a lot of courage to do and to do so over the span of time that you have. Is also a really impressive thing that a lot of people fall victim to mission creep, or feeling like it should be different or more or shinier. And it's not lost on me that the two things that you have brought here behind me were both forged over a long period of time. Perhaps the rock a little longer than the stick, but who knows, and that's a really cool piece. So thank you for spending this time with us today.
James Evans 51:24
Thank you. It's been my sincere pleasure.
Spencer 51:26
It's been great to slow down for just a minute as a good break from all of the rest of the life that awaits us out there. Indeed. Thank you.
James Evans 51:36
Thank you.
Spencer 51:43
So just having finished up with James Evans, I can notice the cadence of my speech having come down, and I'm gonna see how many minutes or how many hours I can maintain that throughout the day, it is like.
Annalee Cate 52:00
I didn't get there. I can't even take it. I could not, I can't take it down that. I mean, it really, it was really inspiring. Like I have to think truly that those guys spend time around him, and it is like you pointed it out so well, he is in his calling. Because it, I wanted to get there, like I wanted to get out in nature and slow down, and it sent me into self reflection. But it was like, This is so far away from where I can even get in this moment that was fascinating. Yeah,
Spencer 52:32
it is a really unique experience, and it was super challenging for me just in this podcast to come and not talk over him, to meet him where he's at, and just kind of let the story go on a stream, on a river, kind of like going with the current.
Annalee Cate 52:56
I think there's something really beautiful in it, too, that as a as an entrepreneur, right as a founder of a nonprofit, and he alluded to this of having those moments in his life, of wanting more, bigger, better, but kind of accepting The impact he's having for what it is, and not having that constant push, but instead learning to, just like we're talking about, be present and appreciate that the outcome isn't always what we want it to be, but it might be exactly what is needed. Was I felt like noteworthy, because for, you know, from an entrepreneurship perspective, it says a hard, that's a really hard one to come to terms with. Convicting is not just, you know, it's got to be this. And I you know, either grown or you're not, you're growing or you're not, yeah, but instead finding it's like finding peace with what it is was really cool.
Spencer 54:06
the right way to say it is that he's growing in the way that, like a root structure, grows deeper. Yeah, and it's not apparent on the surface. Like some plants, they don't get big above the surface, but those roots, they run deep. Yeah, and that's what I think I would describe him as. Is that to spend much time around him, you can tell that he can go as deep as you want to, which is why I knew philosophy quarter he was gonna have no problem with he would measure that in days or weeks worth of time that he could spend there versus my just minutes or hours.
Annalee Cate 54:49
Also, I have to say that that was really hard for me, because there were so many puns, so many good streams. Path flow. I mean, just so many good nature puns that I wanted to use and call out that was tempting.
Spencer 55:10
Even in his word choice on things of like, you know, we all have phones, and I benefit from my phone, like the word choice of I benefit from my phone is just he
Annalee Cate 55:24
was playing. He's planning little. It's like the My husband always makes this joke too, when he did the when I was born, the age joke, my husband always makes a similar one that he's like, Oh, when I was your age, I was a year older. And it's like, people don't get it till later. But it's there's something he has mastered also, I think, in that it's like, when you slow down, he's so intentional with what he's saying that he probably is planting seeds. There's another pun that he's planting seeds that are going to hit you later, or, I don't know, fester and take root, if you will, into something later. Yeah, that I see what you're saying with that.
Spencer 56:08
Yeah, he gave an example of it. Of just the very first greeting that he gives to the soldiers is, are you in the right place? And he knows darn well they're in the right place. And that's the type of question that lasts with you for a long mind games. Yeah, there is a mind game element to it. And I maybe my guess my last thought is one of the philosophical questions that I was asking him is, what do people ask about you when they're trying to get to know you better. And he didn't really answer the question. The way that he responded was by saying, I'm candid, and I let them know right away who I am. And I think, in its own way, that's an answer to the question is that for as quiet and still as he is, he's very decisive in the moments that he's supposed to be to say that when I have this opportunity with the soldiers, I may not get another One, and so I want to let them know right away who I am, what I'm about, and we're going to try to get the most out of the time together. So it is that discernment. You know, he tells the story about the yellow jackets, and there's a time to run, move quick, and there's a time to be still. And it's just interesting to see that inner play, and how he responded to that question. I'll be thinking about that for a while.
Annalee Cate 57:48
I'll tell you what I don't as a closet doomsday prepper, I don't want to come up against James in the woods, though. Like, Sure, I'm telling you he would, like, he'd be enjoying, like, because the mind, like, the mind at play in the strategy there. It would be so subtle, but it'd be terrifying. I do not want to come up in the apocalypse against James in the woods.
Spencer 58:09
That's right. Yeah, this podcast had an alternative ending where it was like a zombie apocalypse, and you were all of a sudden adversarial, and he had, like, lost his way with religion, and you're just encountering, I mean, you're just dead. I mean you're dead, yeah, oh my gosh, that's amazing. That's we should have an alternative podcast, alternative ending.
Annalee Cate 58:29
Like there was one where he legitimately set up, like the place, the refuge, that everybody flocked to. But the alternative ending is great.
