John Staubitz on Autism in TN Schools
John Staubitz, Director of Behavior Analysis at TRIAD, Vanderbilt University, has spent decades helping children with autism and behavior disorders. In a discussion with Spencer and Annalee, he explores how educators and parents can support autistic children to be happy and engaged at home and school. Discover the essentials and take pride in TRIAD’s leading role in providing top-notch strategies for Tennesseans.
About John Staubitz
John Staubitz is the Director of Behavior Analysis in Education at TRIAD, part of the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center.
He’s a seasoned special education teacher and behavior analyst with a focus on severe behavior needs in children and adolescents across various settings. Since joining TRIAD in 2013, he's led projects and initiatives, including directing school-based behavior consultation programs.
John has contributed to research funded by organizations like the National Science Foundation and the Autism Intervention Research Network. He's published work on assessing and treating severe behavior, applying machine learning to behavior assessment, and reading intervention for children with behavior disorders. His dedication lies in enhancing educational and clinical outcomes for this demographic, with a keen interest in improving assessment and intervention processes for practitioners and caregivers.
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Annalee Cate 00:06
We're really excited to have John Staubitz today, who's the director of behavior analysis and education at triad, which is Vanderbilt's autism Institute. Thank you for joining us here today, John,
John Staubitz 00:17
Thanks so much to both of you for having me. This is a treat.
Annalee Cate 00:20
So tell us a little bit about your story. We want to start there, and how you got started, and how you ended up in the field that you're in Absolutely
John Staubitz 00:27
So the story starts way back as a middle schooler, I got involved doing volunteering. There's a summer camp in Cincinnati where I grew up for kids with disabilities. It's where they'd go to have typical summer camp experience. And so I was hooked from the get go, and that was kind of my kind of my, my summertime passion thing that I did. And by the time I was looking for colleges, I thought I really wanted to be a special education teacher. I thought, where's a career where I can spend time interacting with some of these folks who think differently or learn differently or behave differently, and and make a difference, hopefully.
Spencer 01:02
So I yeah, that's, that's where it all started, to see the heart posture of a 17 year old at the time that volunteers at that camp. I have unbelievable respect for those that dedicate their lives to serving those with special needs. I mean, that takes a level of service, that few people have that capacity. So it's amazing in your adulthood that you have that, but to see that in a 17 year old, how did you even find yourself at that camp? Was it something that you were looking for a job? Did a family member? Was there a religious influence? What was the the onset to say, All right, this is something that I'd love to do.
John Staubitz 01:44
I mean, I think a lot of young people, they want to find something that they're good at, that they enjoy. And I'd always been looking for something, and always felt like, Oh, I'm not I'm not a great athlete. I like running, I'm not that good, or I want to be a musician, but I'm not that good. This is something where I felt like it kind of clicked. I felt like I had a bit of a knack for it, and it really, it made me feel good about myself, and became kind of part of my identity at that point.
Spencer 02:05
Was that knack, like patience? Was it connection? What clicked for you at the camp to make you feel like, Hey, I'm actually really good at this. It's something that really fills my tank.
John Staubitz 02:20
I mean, I mean, I think you'd have so many sorts of breakthrough things. I think it's like, I mean, even as a as a teen, like, certain things would happen that you'd realize this is an accomplishment. So like, I remember there was this guy, JJ, who I worked with after a couple years there. He was a guy who was in state custody, and this van of young, of teens would show up, and they had had really, really, I think, you know, intensive needs, but also difficult lives to go along with it. I remember when I first met JJ, and, I mean, I was, like, 16 or 17. He was towering over me. He had a good, like, six to eight inches on me, and wasn't speaking. And the second I first saw him, he was, he was, he was punching himself in the head really hard and biting his arms. It was, it was, it was scary. And I was in a, like, it was really intimidating. Because, like, I mean, you know, he that's a thing with some people with self injury is a big, big issue with a lot of folks with intellectual and development disabilities. And, yeah, I was like, wow, this is, this is the big leagues. And I remember, I really bond with him. We spent a lot of time together. He was 1x when I was talking about the swimming thing, he was one where I made it my mission that, like, he could just sit on the deck if he wanted to, but without coercing him. I remember just seeing, can I can I get him comfortable enough? Can I coax him to come in with me and like that, just like, there, I don't know there's probably a photo somewhere, but, like, eventually I was able to get him in, to get into about waist deep water in the pool. And it was, like, scorching hot summer, and it probably felt good, but I that's the kind of thing that really clicked for me. Wow, if I hadn't been here, and if I hadn't been patient enough, you know, or taking the time to build the relationship, you wouldn't have necessarily had that experience. And so I think that's, I think that's kind of at the root of what I was getting out of it that point.
Annalee Cate 03:53
So at that time to kind of back up in the landscape of, you know, studying this over the years, would you say at that time, was a lot of the conversation, the dialog, the efforts, more just around caregiving, essentially, versus research. Because it seems like I've in your journey, it sounds like we're going to make a little bit of a shift there. So can you talk about that and what the landscape was like at the time?
John Staubitz 04:19
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think again, I was kind of like getting into special education because I wanted to serve and I wanted to have those interactions and that enrichment. But I think I realized, well, if it's me special education, then it's gonna be about building skills and skills that are educationally relevant. So I think this is, yeah, truly was my first entre into what is it like being in a classroom? And what is it like if the main thing we're doing together isn't swimming or playing ball, but it's, you know, trying to learn basic academic skills and so on. So, I mean, I think that was, that was a very form of experience. I learned a lot through that.
Spencer 04:50
What was the connection into Vanderbilt? So what ultimately brought you in here to Nashville?
John Staubitz 04:55
Yeah, so one of the, one of the things I was really fortunate to have at. Ohio State, was a chance to do an undergraduate thesis. So I got to do reading research in Columbus public school. And my advisor, Gwendolyn cartilage, as I was nearing graduation, she said, Well, you can stay here and do your masters with me, and I'd love to have you, but there's this guy, Vanderbilt, who is really, really interested in that intersection of reading intervention and academic intervention and behavior, especially for kids with emotional behavior disorders, because I had kind of become a real interest of mine based on these experiences you're just talking about. And so she said you should talk to Joe Webb, and he's still, he's he's still a department chair here at Vanderbilt special ed program, but I basically in 2003 like not knowing anything about Nashville, you know, came down here and met him and took the tour and was able to to get a research fellowship that paid from paid my way. And, yeah, that was, I moved down to Nashville in 2004 to be a full time professional grad student.
Annalee Cate 05:52
Hopefully you bought some real estate pretty quick.
John Staubitz 05:56
I mean, I'm thankful to be a landowner, but oh man, if I had in 2004 right? We all say that even if it had been like the square that my savings, another part of that decision was at that point, I had felt like, if I'm gonna be working with kids with behavior issues, then I really wanted specialized training. And so I learned about this thing called Applied Behavior Analysis, which, in a nutshell, it's using behavioral psychology like BF Skinner stuff to really understand learning, understanding how principles of reinforcement work. A lot of it probably would map really well into business and people understanding organizational behavior stuff. It's not it's the same sorts of principles, but it's like, well, what if you approached learning problems or behavior problems from a similar mindset? And so at that time, Vanderbilt was about the only place I knew of where I could get kind of a dual Master's in special education and behavior analysis, and that was another draw, along with Joe.
Spencer 06:50
So it seems like the theme of autism started early for you and has maintained throughout the entirety of your your career. Was that ever something that you thought about making a pivot, because Special Ed and the education, I imagine, is covering a lot of different needs. So what was the sustained drive for autism? It's someone in your family, autistic in your community. What was that reason?
John Staubitz 07:19
I mean, honestly, I think that part, I mean, throughout a lot of the early parts of my career, like I was, I was continuing to work with folks who are autistic, and enjoying that, I think that, I mean, at this space, I was really trying to work in with students with emotional behavior disorders, but that there's actually a substantial percentage of that population that is, in fact, autistic, and there were, yeah, I mean, as I Think back, every classroom that I've ever taught in there was at least a couple students who had autism, diagnosed or undiagnosed. So I think that that's, it's almost, I think at this point, I think that autism is around us to such a high degree that, you it's kind of everywhere. I mean, I've since learned that I have family members who are autistic. I have learned that there's more, you know, there's a lot more of it, but I was blind to a lot of that. I mean, honestly, like a lot of folks, up until even just a few years ago, my concept of autism is pretty narrow, yeah, focusing more on the kinds of people I might have met in a special ed classroom or, you know, a treatment center. But there's a lot of folks who are, have probably been our bosses and our teachers and our, you know, our healthcare providers or attorneys who are autistic, we may not have even known it.
Annalee Cate 08:23
Yeah, it's almost, I can almost hear the problem solver, analytical in you that basically diagnose this as a place of maximum impact from a just a statistical prevalence perspective. And it's almost like that could have been what pulled you towards it, of like, I can really have an impact here?
John Staubitz 08:41
Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that's a good that's a wonderful way of framing it. And I believe that the classroom, because I taught for almost six years and I was really drawn towards students and programs where there'd be a low baseline, people who are really struggling, kids who are really on the margins, and just realizing, I mean, it's not just about the low expectations we set, but almost anything you do to help is going to be a benefit, but just kind of also take, I found to be energizing to take on those sorts of challenges and see, well, how, how far can we get with the time we have together?
Annalee Cate 09:16
I want to shift. I want to come back and really deep dive, kind of where we are in autism research in a minute. But before we do that, let's talk about that move to Nashville. And so are you at a stage now, like, is Nashville home for you? Do you see this as where you guys will say.
John Staubitz 09:30
Yeah, I mean, I've lived here for, I think, 18 to last 20 years. This is, this is, this is home for me. I after grad school, I taught in Nashville, and then I took a hiatus and live in Southern California for a couple years teaching and consulting. And I missed Nashville. I missed Tennessee. I mean, not just because closer to family, but I really, I really liked the community here. I loved this city in particular. And so, yeah, I picked this over Santa Monica, what drove that like you've been Midwest.
Spencer 09:56
Nashville's like school. Right, I'm going to Southern California. What was that?
John Staubitz 10:02
I mean, it's a bit of a trope, maybe I, I mean, I'd always pictured I'd go off somewhere, like, my brother had gone to New York City. I was like, you know, have a big city adventure. Yeah. So there was a woman I was pretty seriously dating, like, coming out of grad school, and she said, Well, I'm gonna go out to UCLA and get my PhD. And we weren't, like, serious enough to, like, move in together, but I was like, well, I'll go out there too. I'm sure I can find a job, and I don't need to stay in Nashville. So, I mean, it kind of was just saying, let's, let's see where, see where life takes me. And so, yeah, that was I, there were lots of jobs available out there. The the kind of jobs that were available were not the level of what are here. I didn't, didn't like the work as much. I worked a couple different jobs out there, but it was fun being in, you know, the weather was nice,
Spencer 10:43
And the level being different, meaning that they weren't as good in California as they were here. Like, was there something special about Tennessee versus California?
John Staubitz 10:52
It's so funny. Like, I mean, the, I think the services were, by and large, better, I think in California or California, yeah, and I think a lot of that, honestly, I think that's a theme. I'd love to make sure that listeners are getting I think that we have a not that, not that we should be on a path towards California. I think some of the biggest strengths were, though, there was a lot of public edge, like a lot of awareness for the public, the consumers were very savvy out there. It was a very kind of powerful advocacy community. And I think that meant that education and treatment was head and shoulders above. I mean, insurance companies weren't messing around with people. If kids were entitled to an education, schools wouldn't say, well, let's see if we can get by on not giving what they need, and maybe they won't know the difference, like they kind of assumed every I worked with students out there who were homeless and schools did not mess with them. They knew we got to follow the lead of the law.
Spencer 11:40
So for me, one of the traditions that we've got is we have every guest bring something unique. So what did you bring today? Tell us a story, and then we'll get back into talking about what you do. Perfect.
John Staubitz 11:50
Yeah. So I guess I was kind of on the track of what have I done here in Tennessee? I brought in this is a photograph of the students. It was right around this time of year, actually. So my first year teaching ever was here in Nashville, Metro, Nashville Public Schools. And, yeah, I mean, you can, I mean, if you look at that, that's, it's not quite a candid, it's like a pose shot. But those kids, no one's acting like, that's literally kind of a snapshot of, like, what that class was like, and I was laughing with Danielle a second ago. I mean, these, these young people, they're all grown up now. Like, every once while, run into one of the community, and they're adults now, and it's great, great to know that. But yeah, like this, this sits in my office, and I think having images like that for me are important. It's kind of a reminder, as I have moved into positions of doing more research or more leadership or stuff like that, I I spend less time, yeah, with the kids, and I miss that a bit, but also I want to stay rooted to it, because that's, that's why I'm here. That's hard.
Annalee Cate 12:42
You're having the impact, but you do miss some of that, that real, tangible feeling, yeah,
John Staubitz 12:47
And like they're the ones that matter. I mean, I wouldn't anything I do would have zero impact if there weren't, you know, young people to grow and change something I have noticed.
Spencer 12:56
I've got a dear friend of mine that has a granddaughter that has a number of different special needs. But what he consistently comments is he said, I've never seen a more pure experience of joy than amongst my granddaughter, and that has just touched my heart in a way that that photo perfectly captured, right is we are societally, culturally trained for what is this going to make me look like? What are people going to think of me? And I don't want to be too broad, but that layer seems to not exist nearly as much, or to the same degree in a lot, certainly that photo. So maybe this next portion, what I'd love to do is spend a handful of minutes that, if we can set aside the no stupid questions rule, oh, sure, and just get to ask you some things that the whole idea of special needs, special education can bring a heaviness to someone that doesn't have that in my immediate family, that I'm curious and I have questions and I want to know how to serve but sometimes I'm afraid to ask questions because I don't want to offend, I don't want to cause a awkward dynamic. So if we could just maybe spend 10 or 15 minutes to serve our listeners, to just let us ask a couple questions, and maybe it'll help Annalee and I gain some sea legs in the conversation, but our listeners too. So I'll start off with just saying, when you see autism portrayed in television and in movies just over the last decade, like I think of Modern Family, I think of the good doctor, there are perceptions where I think, for the first time, a mayor. Because seeing autism very visual, and a lot of times it has this dynamic of incredibly intelligent, but also like genius level intelligent, but also severe social struggles in society or in their family. So can you just talk about the portrayal of autism in media, and whether you think the last decade has been helpful in those portrayals, or whether you think it's reinforcing stereotypes that you're like, you know, I'm not sure that that's being represented. How I'd love to see it represented.
John Staubitz 15:37
I mean, these are the other things you're bringing up here. And I mean, I, honestly, I'm encouraged by there being more visibility forward in media. I mean, as far as I'm I may not, I can only speak for myself, but I do think that to the extent like right now, like, if you guys are able to mention, you could probably, if pushed, could mention probably three to five different, you know, shows or movies where you'd say, there's this, there's this autistic character, there's that one. I think that's part of, maybe the solution, of moving towards people recognizing there's different I mean, years ago, they called it Autism Spectrum Disorder, the idea being there's all different presentations. And I remember for a while, folks in the autism community saying like, please just stop having met one person, met one person with autism, assuming that that's what it looks like. And, you know, you meet someone and you say, I don't think that person's autistic, they don't look like the other autistic person I met and like, that's really like a major misunderstanding. I mean, like any characteristic shared by many people, it's gonna look and feel different. So I think that's a big part of it. I think that there's, I mean, you hit on, I think a couple of the core features of autism have always been, on the one hand, some issues around social and communication differences, that it's been a difference experience, and that can range from people feeling like it's debilitating or a barrier, to people maybe saying, Well, I'm perfectly happy to have a very different set of social needs or skills. I think on the other side, it's looking at what they'll call kind of like restricted interests or repetitive patterns of behavior, but some sort of a in a way that's maybe different from a neurotypical person, an interest in doing things the same way, having things the same way, and almost, in some cases, being maybe more bothered or more agitated when there's a deviation from that, but I think, I think that those hold true across the different presentations, and I hope that's coming through in media.
Spencer 17:27
it is, does the traditional presentation of autism always include some part of exceptional ability to, I don't want to say offset, but to counteract in some way, does it always include that? Or help me understand what that? Because I feel like that's the consistent portrayal. Is that it is largely portrayed. Yes, mathematical genius, an analytical genius. And I sometimes just wonder, Is that lurking there, you know, in every case. So help me understand that?
John Staubitz 18:03
I mean, that's, that's a phenomenal question. And I don't I, my thought would be of at this point, I've met hundreds of autistic people already. I've never met one who didn't have things they could do that I certainly couldn't do, or most people couldn't do. Yeah. So I think in terms of, sometimes it might be something that's easier or harder to recognize or measure or figure out. I mean, some cases it's been stuff that's very obvious, yeah, but like, I got, you know, years ago meeting someone who you'd meet, and this person would say, Well, what's your what's your birthday? And they tend to say, You were born a Tuesday, and they'd be, they'd be right, which, like, you can look on the internet, like mathematicians have said that's actually, that's a many, many step process. Like, they've tried to write out, how do you get there? And it's, like, at least 15 to 26 steps or something like that. But there's, there's, like, that's a thing. There's, there's several autistic people who do that. We're not quite sure how they do that. But, like, I, I remember, oh, man, this was, like, you know, one of the summer jobs I had, there was a guy who carried a keyboard from everywhere. And this guy, he couldn't really, he couldn't speak vocally. I mean, definitely had other sorts of deficits. But this guy, I mean, this is like, kind of like a Rain Man sort of thing. But this is my first experience of just shocking ability. He carried this keyboard, and he'd be playing music all the time. And I knew enough about music you know, people, he'd be playing this key, and then he'd immediately switch to another key, and then switch to another key and be songs you knew. And then he'd be playing harmonies on, I mean, he was just doing all this stuff that, like, I mean, he was like a nine or 10 year old kid, and he just had the most incredible I mean, his timing was perfect. I mean, he had all of these capabilities that, as someone who studied music, some people never get there. And he was a self taught, you know, musician who just spent all of his time just doing so all that to say I believe, I mean, I think on one level, everybody has special abilities. I do think there's a lot about the more I understand about autism through through family members and friends and people I'm meeting. I think that a lot of folks will say, let's let's stop calling a disability. Let's stop calling a disorder. People say they feel like difference makes more sense, as in, there's different preferences. Is there's different strengths. And I think that this is what you're onto here.
Annalee Cate 20:03
Yeah. So, I so love that. And I think one of the questions I have some really curious of where we are, research wise, where we are with understanding, you know, of the autism spectrum, you know, again, I'm the same way that I've always seen it as, Wow, incredible gifts that can manifest in these different places. And I think one of the things that's interesting to me about your field, in particular with education, is to say there was a time when, you know, the the philosophy seemed like more of a, oh, they have all these problems. We're going to put them off to the side, versus it seems like you're really working at changing and creating a culture of, let's, let's let's basically develop these unique gifts and make sure that we're providing an educational experience that highlights and, you know, provides a custom piece for them. But can you talk about how far into that are we? Are we still way, way off base from where we need to be in terms of education to be able to develop those things, versus just we don't understand it, so we're not going to do anything with it.
John Staubitz 21:02
I think that's awesome. And it's, I mean, I truly think that's where we're headed. I think culturally, I think that's where we're headed. Educationally, I consider my wife works a lot with a lot of graduate students who come from other countries. She has a lot of graduate students from China, for instance. And I feel like part of like American the idea of like American education not leading to also, I think, you know, a lot of her students will say that themes in some of their countries are about everybody kind of having the same skill sets or kind of a normalization goal. And I don't think that's ever been the goal for us, yeah, as a culture or with an education. I love the idea of, you know, if someone is, you know, particularly gifted at and interested in computer programming, yeah, that they might enjoy that more, for instance, than debate team, and that we don't say, Well, you need to be equally proficient in both, that they can, yeah, you know, if you will become a star and that thing, if you really develop it and lean into it, and that's what I mean. I mean it's what I want for our country. It's also just as a parent now of young children, it's what I want for my daughters is I don't I'm not interested in whether they're just like everybody else. What I'm interested in is them. Is you're saying finding finding joy, finding it in their way, and then also cultivating the Yep.
Annalee Cate 22:10
Okay, so this might be a slightly controversial question, but I'm curious. So as a parent as well, right? I think about this all the time too, and one of the things I've seen socially current day. And I'm really intrigued by this, as I'm like, You, I think that spectrum is so wide and it, it's like you start meeting people and experiencing family members and things and going, Okay, I maybe never noticed this, but this, this can definitely be somewhere on that spectrum. It might be a wider spectrum than we all realize. And we, you know, who knows kind of where we all fall on that. But my question is, it can feel today like from a parent perspective, right? As a parent, we all know that significance, it can bring things out in parents. Of you know, your own identity and that significance in parents. And one of the things I've seen and kind of hurt as a trend lately is this, almost this woke parent ideology of beating my chest. It's a significance thing that my child has a disorder, and it becomes less about the child and more about that kind of, you know, being part of the club. And have you? Have you seen that this is something I'm curious about that I think could actually be almost damaging. But I'm curious about, if you've seen any prevalence of that in education space,
John Staubitz 23:27
No, I guess I'm not. Maybe it's not in some of the circles where I'm interacting, but, I mean, I Yeah, but I mean, I a lot of the a lot of the families that I'm encountering are ones who are there, especially because the, I mean, I don't work with just anybody with autism. A lot of theme, the themes that are the people I'm working with are people really struggling with behavior, yeah. And a lot of these, a lot of these families are just desperate for any, yeah, any kind of help or relief. So yeah, I guess maybe that's, maybe that's what I'm picking up on, yeah.
Annalee Cate 23:55
And do you, I mean, do you see when you're dealing with those behavioral disorders, like, is it something where you see kind of parents or even teachers, or educators like pushing kids to a certain path just to explain it, versus really being open to exploring a range of for that particular kid, what's going on and how to navigate them through that? Like, or do you see any of those kind of problems, I guess, and being able to develop these custom solutions.
John Staubitz 24:24
I mean, I'm sure there's some of that out there. I mean, I do think we do a lot of consulting and statewide. A lot of times I'm looking out for do we have reasonable expectations? Are we trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? And sometimes that's, you know, not that it's up to me to tell people change your expectations or something, but I do try to, as a behavior analyst, I'm lucky to be able to figure out ways for us to measure things and kind of report this is what the numbers say. You know, we're on a trajectory towards being able to read, or we're on a trajectory towards being able to learn the skill. So I think, I think sometimes that can help. If there's differences of opinion, it's like, let's look at something. I mean, emotion. Are important and emotions are real. But sometimes there's other things that help too. But, I mean, yeah, I just, I think that for a lot of the students that I'm working with, like, the biggest struggle is us figuring out how to, I mean, students have a they have a right to a free and appropriate public education. A lot of the kids I'm working with, their behavior can be so dangerous or so impactful that that's it's like, Yes, this is their right. But how can we, how can we make sure that they're safe enough that we can do this? Yeah, I mean, how do we make sure that they're not going to get hurt? How do we make sure that people work with them, don't get hurt? And so I think that's where, I mean, again, we it's usually working closely with families, educators, administrators, to try to that can be, that can be real challenge.
Annalee Cate 25:40
Yeah, because I'd have to think that the science piece of it, because it is emotional, you know, as I can't imagine, as a parent navigating through that and you know, you're trying to find solutions for your child, and you don't always know exactly what's going on and what the best path is. But when you think about the science of it, what are some of the things that y'all are, is it literacy rates? Like, what are you measuring to basically be able to keep it, you know, on that, that channel of how we're developing these children?
John Staubitz 26:12
Yeah, well, I think for our I think it's a couple big things that our team is working on, and I think one of those is trying to really increase engagement. Okay, so I mean the children that mean they have to be there, yeah, they have to be kind of in a learning place. So that's things like in our kids. Are they showing up? Have they been fed enough? Are they? Are they in an emotional headspace where the home they came out of wasn't too chaotic for them to show up and learn? So I think that those are some of the big parts of then also, I love that you brought up the joy that we sometimes see. I think that for a lot of kids I work with, it's been harder for them to find joy, or maybe like they can find joy at home. But the question is, what does a happy version of them look like in school? I honestly think that, especially for the populations I work with, but maybe in general, we should be looking for how can we help kids to be more in my there's a phrase right now that we use a lot in our work, professionally, happy, relaxed and engaged. But like, wouldn't, wouldn't anybody want their child to be happy, relaxed and engaged at school? Yeah. And Wouldn't we all agree that if your child couldn't reach a state of being happy, relaxed and engaged, you're not going to learn anything, you know? So I think that's, I don't know. Maybe I'm taking us off track here a little bit. But I kind of, I feel like, you know, there's, there's a lot of great signs out there around, you know, the way to teach someone reading, and honestly, some of the work early in my career was looking at that. I think at this point, there's, there's great there's great data out there. There are great tools out there. People choose to use them or not. But I think that for kids, where the motivation has been the issue, I think sometimes we have to, we have to get them happy enough to learn too.
Spencer 27:41
Yeah, a lot of times when someone that doesn't have experience with any type of special education, the natural reaction is fear, sure, and when you see certain behavioral presentations of autism or otherwise, it can enhance that fear so from someone that has been around children all the way through adults, you've done it for decades. How might you counsel someone that is more of an outsider that might see something and their first reaction be fear? What would you say to them?
John Staubitz 28:22
Oh, man, I think there's a few. I think there's maybe a few approaches. I think one is, I mean, having an awareness of what one's feeling is really important. So if you're saying I'm feeling fear, okay, well, someone can think through what am I afraid of here? Or is that, you know, and can I, can I look at that closely? Do I think I'm going to get hurt? Am I worried I'm going to hurt their feelings? Am I worried I'm going to offend their family members? So we can, kind of, like, think through, what do I need to do to maybe make that fear seem a little bit less clear or more clear, but, like, more surmountable? I think other things, I think, think perspective taking, I feel like the more I've worked around some of these populations, the easier it comes to me. I'm not saying I'm right, but I'll, I'll think, and I will verbalize for people around me. You know what I think it might feel like the person who's in this space? So for instance, let's say if you were in, let's say if you were at the dentist office, and if someone brought in a child, maybe with a development ability, if the child is, you know, obviously very agitated and upset, if you're to think through, you know, some kids love medical appointments. Some don't, yeah, but imagine showing up, and what if you had only 5% of the information your parent gave you when you came because this child, the parent tried to explain it, but for this child, their receptive language might make it really hard to figure out or picture. If, when you're in the dentist's office, if you know that, you can say, well, I need a break, like I'm, you know, I'm getting a bit woozy, or whatever, that they'll hear you. But picture, if you didn't have that luxury picture, if you're not confident, if someone starts putting stuff in your mouth, you may not be able to get them to stop without hitting them, because they're not going to understand you. They're not going to respond. They might. Think you're just being difficult. So some of the kids I work with, like trying to think that perspective, I think allows me to be a little more, you know, like interpreting what's this really about? Like they may not be trying to they might be showing anxiety or, you know, or the fear of their own. And I think a third one is, I think that realizing the impact of our fear when we're holding ourselves at a distance, I think we can almost it can be harder for us to draw out the best in people. And I think that, you know, a lot of the kids I work with, even though, I think for a while, people, there was a stereotype going around on autism and people saying, Oh, they don't like people, they don't like friends, they're not social. I believe that's a myth. I believe that it may look different. It may look different what they want from us, and they look different how they ask for it. But I find more and more a lot of folks, the idea is to approach if you want to be available. I mean, maybe don't try to guide the interaction. Like, you know, you might think that, yeah, like, you might think other kids want you to go up and joke with them or touch them, like, just make sure they let them kind of see where they lead you, like, if you can signal through your body language or through your words, hey, I'm here, and you know, if you want, we can talk, or I can just watch you doing what you're what you're doing, and see where they take you.
Spencer 31:11
Maybe just two more questions before we transition on, do you find that for one individual that's presenting with pretty severe autism that there is any enhanced or special connection to someone else that has autism, that they have an ability, even if it's not to relate in the same social way that you and I might relate. Does that community add anything? Or do you find that, hey, it's really no different if this individual is around someone that is autistic or not.
John Staubitz 31:46
Well, that's a great question, and I it's hard for me to know so much around folks who have difficulty, maybe vocally, verbally expressing these sorts of things. But I think what I'm hearing a lot from, from autistic individuals who can speak to it, is that family members of mine have talked to me about this like it can feel like they can feel more understood sometimes, like, you know, feeling understood about misunderstandings that they tend to experience, or there may be, you know, more of an acceptance of differences. Like, oh, you have this, you know, superpower. I have this one, like we can recognize that and celebrate that for each other, or, you know, having a restricted interest of one kind, you know, if we're both really into the same hobby, okay, then it might be that, you know, maybe your neurotypical friends would say, all right, like we played that last weekend, let's do something else. And these other folks say, No, this is what we do every weekend. We get together and we do the thing that is our obsession. And it might be for years, yeah.
Spencer 32:40
And the last thing is, there's a lot of conversation about the prevalence of autism, and I feel like with every five years or 10 years, there's a finger pointed at what is causing a significant rise in autism. What's really unique for you in particular is you have lived through a series of decades where autism was not understood hardly at all. In the 90s, when you got started and really negative, pejorative language was used for something that none of us had a concept to where today, the understanding has expanded dramatically. So as a researcher in this space, can you help affirm or debunk whether we're seeing autism rise at all? Is it just a product of more diagnosis and better or is it truly like there is an underlying thing that is resulting in measurably higher cases of autism than before?
John Staubitz 33:50
Yeah, I my hypothesis for a while, and I it's hard, it's hard to it's hard to prove or disprove something like this, but I believe that it's really hard to rule out detection differences, because there was, I mean, if you compare to where we were, I mean, there, there are, there are many more diagnostic tools than before. There are so many more diagnosticians, you know, in a place like Tennessee, for instance, and we have, I think we are second in the country behind California in terms of early autism detection, that doesn't necessarily mean we have more autism. It's because of Vanderbilt Medical Center and my colleagues there the infrastructure they've built. I mean, like my colleagues, provide many trainings a year for school psychologists across the state, specifically training them how to do the ADOS, which is the gold standard assessment. Not every state has someone who can do that, and our Tennessee Department of Education pays for that. The there's my colleagues developed an app that is was designed to walk a pediatrician through a screening. So let's say a parent says, kind of concerned with my child? Should we try to get an evaluation or not? This is assuming that those frontline pediatric. Traditions can play a huge role in either telling a parent, give it some time, which was what they were always telling parents in the 90s, they'll grow out of it. They'll grow out of it, and then years later, some parents said, Oh, I wish we'd started early, yeah, you know, or, you know, kind of saying, you know, no, this. They're not, they're not checking out so far. And so I think that's, there could be other factors. But I think it's really hard, I think to rule that out. I mean, there has just, I think, been an exponential growth and access to diagnostics, okay? And that's, I think that's a good thing.
Annalee Cate 35:31
How much of initiative is there at triad of around, like, parental education too? Because I would have to think that that is such an important part, and especially, again, you know, coming out of an era where not much was known, you know, it would be such an important part of helping parents understand that. Like, hey, you know, your kid can go on to do all of these different things, but there's, you know, there's ways that you support them in that development. So how much effort you guys put into that?
John Staubitz 35:59
I mean, if I'm allowed to make a few plugs, a couple. Triad is within the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center. And I think the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center has a long history of trying to engage with families. My colleagues have tried for years. I've led a program called families first. That's not limited only people in Nashville. People join virtually from all across the state of Tennessee. I think there's even people from some other states who join, but I think it's once or twice a month, they have trainings for parents. Some of those parents just found out that they have an autistic child. Others, you know, kind of telling other people what they've learned over the years. But I think that programs like that, I think can be really helpful. I think that there's a lot of organizations in Tennessee, step or the Disability Rights Tennessee, the arc of Tennessee, all of whom know that there's families out there who, like them, are only as powerful as the knowledge they have. So trying to share that, I think part of my plug is, I think what Tennesseans should know is that our Department of Education has an initiative called the Tennessee Technical Assistance Network, and this is 90% of the work I do is on this network, but it's basically at no cost to families or their schools. It's kind of a hub for people to get the assistance they need. And so if someone Googles 10 tan or t, N, T, a n, they a parent could say, I need assistance. I need help with my kids, and they would be immediately routed to a free service where an individual will hear them out and try to help them find what they need. So I think it's I think it's huge. I don't know if Tennessee's better than than everybody else, but I think there's definitely some some some cool initiatives and some really positive partners in our state.
Spencer 37:32
Yeah, and maybe we'll use that as a jumping in place for the final part of the conversation, which is just to really bring it home to Tennessee. Yeah. So you said just a couple minutes ago that California was number one and Tennessee number two. I can't think of many lists of anything where California and Tennessee are right there together on something really different states. So let's talk about a couple Tennessee specific things as it relates to this initiative. So first, just from a numbers perspective, can you help me understand in Tennessee how many cases of autism we might see in a state like this? Do you have that data to help me think about just what type of incident rate we see amongst children.
John Staubitz 38:24
I should memorize. I think it's one in 35 I will, I will fact check myself and make sure let you know. But yeah, it's, and it's, it's probably pretty accurate. We, I think, in part, because of our infrastructure, we have been one of the CDC detection sites. When you hear those national numbers, Tennessee is contributing to those. There's a CDC Center at Emory University in Atlanta that kind of is a hub for a lot of that kind of stuff. But yeah, I mean, I think that that is a big part of it. I was in a meeting with some folks Commissioner Brad Turner, who works under the governor is over the Department of Intellectual and Developmental division of intellectual and developmental disabilities, or di DD, and yeah. Within this conversation, they were talking about being at some national conferences, and people saying, Wow, just as you said, Tennessee's number two on this list. I mean, this is a big deal. And people were coming to the commissioner and his colleagues saying, What are y'all doing?
Spencer 39:15
Yeah, someone cares in order to make it there, like someone cares,
John Staubitz 39:19
yeah, and to be, I mean, honestly, for any state to be a leader like that is a big deal, but I think it's, I think that's a really positive mark for our state, I think in terms of the possibility of sizing up need. I think, along with that, I think another really groundbreaking program we have is, I think that to me, you know, telling people that that your child is autistic, that's helpful information, maybe. But like, what do you do with it? There's a program at Tennessee's early intervention system, and again, this is funded by the governor's office. I think it's under di DD. But where families in Tennessee, if your child is two or three and you get that diagnosis, you are immediately eligible to enroll in this teis system that can. Take you all the way up through pre K or kindergarten, and it includes robust things like my colleagues, for instance, work on this program. You could be in any corner of the state, and an early interventionist will come out to your home, and as a parent, will show you some basic and they customize it. If what your child needs is communication skills, they'll teach you how to enhance your child's communication. If your child's struggling to play. Could be play. It could be behavior like, if it's feeding, toileting and those sorts of things. And then my colleagues will provide consultation to those early interventionists, so they're really getting kind of state of the art service. But again, I think that's rare. When I hear that other states hear about what Tennessee's doing, they're like, Wow, that is an ideal model. You can't get any better than making it really easy for people to get the diagnosis and then not walk away with empty handed but walk away with a connection to to quality care.
Annalee Cate 40:49
That's good things off and running, and I have, I mean, I just can't imagine, as a parent, yeah, getting that type of support, just it, no matter where that is, that's probably one of the coolest things, which to me
John Staubitz 40:58
. I mean, I'm sure some would even appreciate if it's like, well, here's a pamphlet, or here's a website, but for somebody to get to know you and your child, I mean, this just because kids are so different, yeah, I think that's really important one. So I think those are, think those are really positive. I think too. Again, this kind of in the the Department of Education space. A lot of the work I do is partnered with the Tennessee Department of Education, and I've been really, I've been really impressed and pleased with how progressive they've been. They I think it was in 2020 that they put together the grant applications for this Tennessee Technical Assistance Network. And I'm not really aware of other states that are doing it. I have colleagues in a lot of other states, but where they've looked across seven or eight different areas of disability support in schools and made sure we work together efficiently. We got to talk to talk to each other. We have to be coordinated. So there's the family engagement part, there's the severe behavior part. There's a part that's just focused on autism that my colleagues at triad run. There's a part on transition from, you know, school to adulthood. It's really, it's been cool to see how that's come together. And I'm really glad Tennessee's doing that.
Annalee Cate 41:58
I'm curious about that too, across Tennessee. I mean, one, two questions. One, how consistent is the programming like county to county across Tennessee? Of we've kind of, we've to some extent, figured out paths that work. How consistently is that rolled out across the state? So that's the first question.
John Staubitz 42:14
I mean, it's so it's so localized, because I really strongly feel like from school system to school system, not only different resources, but very different student populations. Yeah. I mean, I think that, for instance, around around behavior I think that there's a little more possibility than before behavior analysts like myself, when I came to try it 10 years ago, they're really rare, like and we're seeing some research, and there were many, many counties in Tennessee where no behavior analyst reported serving that county. Yeah, like, you might be 100 miles from someone who could help if your kid had severe behavior, but there's been, I mean, in part, thanks to there was a licensure law for behavior analyst that passed in Tennessee. What followed was an insurance mandate. Finally, families could get coverage through insurance for ABA care for their children with autism. And now there's just been a massive exponential growth in the number of analysts out there, which I think has helped schools like we used to say, well, find a behavior analyst if you can. And school systems would say, if we could find them, we would. Now it's just every year, there's more and more that we're meeting who are serving even rural communities that are far from, far from Nashville. So yeah, yeah. And I guess other, other kind of differences that we'll see is, is leadership. There's, there's some, some school systems will have these just really, really sharp, forward thinking, you know, administrators at Central Office, and those are some ones I see achieving great things. Yeah.
Annalee Cate 43:37
And then one more question I had, so from a research perspective, where do we stand on understanding for the programs in the schools, like, is it typically better for children that are dealing with, you know, some position on the spectrum being educated together, or have we figured out that it's actually better for them to be in classroom with, you know, other children that aren't facing those same challenges?
John Staubitz 44:03
That's a phenomenal question. I believe that it's, it's not only the legal mandate, but I think it is best for kids to be as included as they can. I mean, I think that, you know, we all, I think, thrive from connecting with our peer communities. However, I think that I'm seeing the pendulum swing a little bit in Tennessee, I think a few years ago, people were taking that call for inclusion, and were like getting rid of special ed classrooms and saying, All right, well there, we'll all be educated here then. And I think that, I think the pendulum swing back a bit, at least with severe behavior. We're finding some school systems are saying, well, if you have even four kids, yeah, who you know we've tried to include, but we can't do it safely. They need enough one on one support, or we need to build their their learning readiness skills. I mean, this kid is gonna need to learn how to be in a classroom before we can just plop them into a classroom, right? So I'm seeing school systems, both urban and rural now, like right now, like this season, working with us. Trying to think, how can we make sure we have they call it a continuum of service, where no matter what your kid needs, if they're fully included, that's fantastic. If they need some support, well included. Great if they have a if they're going to be in and out of a special ed classroom for specialized academic instruction, let's make sure they get it. But there might be some kids, and the classrooms I taught over the years were those self contained rooms where it was like all day, or mostly all day, students were needing support, and I never felt like we had someone in there who shouldn't have been in there. I really felt like we used our data to integrate them as soon as we could, as early as we could. But sometimes we really need intensive intervention.
Annalee Cate 45:34
Yeah, yeah, that's great. It sounds like we're really making a path and a process again, that gives that custom experience, which is it sounds like, what is really so important there?
John Staubitz 45:43
I think so, especially with individual, individual children, we individualized.
Spencer 45:50
Yeah, as you think about the future for Vanderbilt and the role that triad is playing in the community, what does the next three to five years look like in the things that you all are working on and trying to support Tennessee,
John Staubitz 46:06
I think there's, I think, several cool things. I think that, I mean, one of them is something we haven't talked about as much before, but I think we've always been a fan of innovation, and I think that we've, for instance, our organization, I think, was an industry leader, like nationwide, of getting into teleconsultation relatively early we were I was doing a lot of teleconsultation even back in 2015 well before covid. What that looks like is, if you have a state where you know you might be working the kid with severe behavior who's 300 miles from your office, I do drive out there for those sorts of cases, but I can work a lot more cases and help a lot more kids if we're able to hop on Zoom and see, well, how are things doing this morning? Or if someone says we had a hiccup yesterday, well, I can jump on before I can get out there, people sharing videos. So I think we have a history of doing that. We're recognized as a leader nationally in that. I think some of the next areas we're moving into is looking at artificial intelligence, and some of the ways that that, you know, may bring to bear. I'm lucky enough I'm in, we're in year six of a project where we've joined with folks in Vanderbilt University's engineering department. One of their mechanical engineers, Nalan John Sarkar, is has worked with me since 2018 we've joined together. It's this team of engineers who specialize in building sensors, artificial intelligence and the software part, and then my team that that specialize in behavior assessment intervention. So for instance, we're working on this project right now. It's funded by the National Science Foundation, where we are building a model where a child comes comes to us in our clinic that are wearing a shirt with sensors, and I'll do an assessment where I'll I'll do the things that a parent told me to do that to make them happy and calm, and then I'll do things that their parents say irritate them, and I'll do things that make them calm again, and we repeat and we repeat the process a few times, and it builds a predictive model that would buzz your smartwatch when the kid is bugged and you need to like, back off and take it easy, or whether you need to like or it's a good time to learn. So I mean, there's, there's so many applications. I think the initial application we're looking for is, if you're doing intervention or treatment with a kid with really severe behavior, there's great utility to the therapist getting a heads up, hey, they're not feeling so
Spencer 48:04
good. Can you explain wearing the sensors? Yeah. What does that mean?
John Staubitz 48:07
This is, I mean, again, this is, like, it's, it's very cutting edge. There's a lot of sensor stuff going with machine learning. This is one where the with our team, there's, there's engineers from North Carolina State University who invented these sensors. They literally like created them, and they look kind of like the, you know, about the size of your key fob, and so you wear those. I mean, they're charged up, and they are attached by Bluetooth. So those are sitting in like, it's like a cat and Jack shirt from a target. That's really comfy. We did some research to see what autistic individuals felt comfortable wearing. We wanted to be comfortable. We know there's some sensory needs. It needs to be wearable. Yeah? So it's a very comfortable shirt. We've had no one who's complained about that part, so maybe sensor here, sensor here, sensor here, sensor here, sensor here.
Spencer 48:48
Just for our listeners, you're pointing at, sure, yeah, point.
John Staubitz 48:52
It was one of forearm. There's one on like the bicep or tricep, there's one the middle of the chest, one the middle the back, and then the other arm as well. And then there's a it looks it doesn't really look like a watch, but it's worn like a watch, so it's on a strap, and that actually collects a lot of additional things, that captures heart rate, how sweaty the person's skin is, motion and stuff like that. Additionally, too, the person wears a clip on microphone, and we're processing audio. What we learned there's other people who are trying to do this kind of work, where we've been able to kind of lead the pack a bit, is using all those different sensors and integrating them at once is far more predictive than one thing. Like people have tried to say, well, what if someone were a heart rate sensor, would that predict? It? Heart rate's a funky thing. It's really, really hard. We've tried. We've looked at the data not particularly predictive on its own. In fact, none of the singular channels we use are particularly predictive on their own, but when you bring nine channels together, wow, all of a sudden it's not so. For instance, it's like, you know, a kid who, you know, moves their torso this way and puts their head down and hisses, you know, their parents like, that's, that's it. That's when they're bugged, you know. And so we found it isn't. Yeah, it's comprehensive. Yeah, it's comprehensive, and we're able to the other thing is, so my work as a behavior analyst, some of the things I'll do in behavior assessments is where we'll literally try to recreate a problem that parents have told us about. I have assessments I do where I'll literally kind of trigger the person getting upset. And so what that allows us to do is these models are only as strong as the number of data points you have. So if you just like other people who are doing this sort of experiment, will have someone wear sensors for 24 or 48 hours, and you have to wait for them to get upset, like, you know, 20 times and hurt themselves. And for us, we're able to make it all happen within about an hour and 15 minutes, and we're able to do it without them hurting themselves. We're able to build the model based on the warning signs we've had only, I think, one participant has ever had any real behavior. We've done this experiment, you know, dozens of times, but it's it's all built off the the warning signs, so we're proud of that, and it's safe and it's quick.
Spencer 50:57
That's a really spectacular Hope Giving Initiative. Is there anything as a wrap up here, that for those that hear it and that inspires them, maybe it's the first time that they're hearing about it. Is there anything that they can do to participate, or for someone that wants to support that, any call that you can make there as we close.
John Staubitz 51:22
I mean, I think that there's, I think the plug I would just give would be for Vanderbilt Medical Center, or the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center, or that Tennessee Technical Assistance Network. I think that for people who just are interested in innovative models of care. I mean, I think the Vanderbilt Medical Center, there's a Division of Developmental medicine within which we sit, where I think that if someone says, I am really desperate I want my child to have, you know, the best they can in terms of care. I think that's the place for it. I think in terms of connecting with research and, you know, being a study participant through the Vanderbilt Kennedy Center, there's a program on there called, I think, study finder. And parents can say, you know, hey, my kids this year's old, and if there's a study of this kind we're interested, that's the way to do it. And then that Tennessee Technical Assistance Network, again, this is it's it's sponsored by our Department of Education. I really hope that any parents or teachers or anybody out there listening will will use that and take advantage of it. It's a good program.
Spencer 52:15
John, your heart shines through in this interview in a really special way. And I love your story in the call that you felt really early when very, very few 17 year old kids would volunteer for a project in the way that you did, and then to not only see it, but to be so dedicated and not diverting for a moment for your entire career has really been incredible. So it's a real treat to have you here Tennessee's fortunate to have you at Vanderbilt, and don't go back to Southern California anytime in the near future, Tennessee is home.
John Staubitz 52:56
Thank you for welcoming me, not only to Tennessee, but also the podcast. This has been really a lot of fun.
Spencer 53:02
Thank you, John. Just finishing with John, I really came away from that impressed. Yeah, it's rare that you see someone that has such a servant's heart, and I could just tell in the questions and his demeanor, like he had such a nice smile, and you could just imagine that a family dealing with a diagnosis that has the potential to change the remainder of their life, that he's a guy that cares and has been in the space for so long. And I really loved seeing that.
Annalee Cate 53:49
Yeah, it's such an asset, and it's atypical, too. I think a lot of times when, you know, in my experience, a lot of times when I find people that really do have that driving passion, and I think you were kind of looking for that they've got a personal experience, or they've got some sort of personal tie to it. But I think it's more rare actually, to find somebody that just really had a call and a gift and has just purely ended up pulled into something that he's naturally gifted to do, and then has made that a life's mission. I think is an atypical and a cool thing to see.
Spencer 54:22
I totally agree with that. You could see how much he has learned. He has a teachable spirit all throughout like he appreciated the chance to educate in here and to be in research, like perfect spot for him, because you did point out accurately in the podcast that he has kind of made this transition from being more on the active therapy side of intervention to being on the research side. And that's another unique skill set that you don't see in a lot of people to be able to bridge. Between those two?
Annalee Cate 55:00
Yeah, I think that was really important to me too, because what I, you know, saw in that, and then just thinking through some of the things we talked about, I was thinking about the dentist office example, too. It's, you know, at as a parent, I think, and just going, you know, through this thought process, it would be so easy at first, to be so overwhelmed with the fear and the emotion if you find out that your child is, you know, diagnosed with autism, I can imagine that array of complex emotions, and it would be so easy to feel kind of a loss or a despair or a hopelessness. But what I love about what John is doing with triad is being on that research side. I mean, you can see material things that they are doing that is creating a a positive outcome that can then bring so much hope and and really help transition something that I think shouldn't have to be an automatic, sad feeling, but instead, like a hopeful possibility feeling. And I see them literally creating solutions that drive towards that that, you know, I It's like, it'd be, it'd be incredible to be living in a time when you're like, Okay, I'm raising the next Einstein. Here goes, baby, you know. And I see, I see that the effort that they're doing through that research side is really leading towards a path like that, and that is really hope inspiring.
Spencer 56:26
I thought he did give a good message of hope that not in every case, but in some there's a element to figure out where their very special, unique gifting is. And I think just from the population size that he talked about, the specific examples of those that were spectacularly gifted in music and in math and in recollection calculations. That presence in a small sample size, to me, not as a researcher, shows that there's something there. Now, for some individuals, it may not be surfaceable. We may not be able to bring that with the information and technology that we have today, but I did think it provided a message of hope to say it's in there. Now we may not find it, yeah, but it's in there, and I think that's really encouraging. And I
Annalee Cate 57:24
think, too, it was interesting to think about that piece, because we've, we've always talked about this in a professional setting, in in the workplace, as you know, we've managed teams and employees, and, you know, built companies that like, I've always truly believed that everybody has a special gift, and they have kind of that, that unique thing, that when they find it, it's like the stars align. And, you know, not everybody does find it, but that's for all people. But when people find it, it's so beautiful. And I think it's clear in specifically this population, that one there's, there's some incredible stuff that, if we can learn to harness and tap into, you know, like, like, course, trajectory altering stuff for civilization, if we can tap into these things, but also it shows how little we know, and still, how much research is to be done, and still, you know, how much work we have to do to figure out how to accurately tap into that for each individual in all settings, but especially in this community.
Spencer 58:27
I was just sitting with the former senior pastor of Brentwood Baptist Church, Mike Glenn, a week ago, and he told me a stat that said only 13% of churches in Tennessee have any ability to accommodate kids with special needs on Sundays, 13% I think this is an amazing call for churches to hear what John had to say, and that one in 35 kids is presenting with autism, which means 3% So there's 7 million Tennesseans right now, which, if you do that math, that means that there's a couple 100,000 that have autism. Now somewhere on the spectrum. Doesn't mean that it has to be severe, but somewhere there and for churches to think about how to best serve and show care, show concern, leaning into that special education offering on Sunday to bring families a sense of normalcy just for an hour or two, I think would be a really powerful testimony that churches could again, distinguish themselves. Because what Mike Glenn, he says this, and I love it. He says, people don't hate Christians because they're different. They hate them because they're not different enough. And I really think that this is. Case that Tennessee is a leader in autism. We heard that from John, like California one, Tennessee, two in treatment like someone in government cares. Yeah, I don't know who it is. We should find that out, but someone, and it's likely a team, a group, really cares, because you don't get to number two by accident. I think that that is an amazing place to take a cue as a church as well and say, Let's lean into this special thing that's happening in Tennessee and serve our communities better.
Annalee Cate 1:00:37
Yeah, we're falling behind there. We're not we're not keeping up with the times and in terms of learning from what's happening in the broader landscape, and you don't want to, you don't want to lose that relevance. But it definitely, I totally agree, it sounds like something that that is a way where we can evolve in, yeah, what can feel kind of like a dying population or cultural relevance, but we're missing something that's actually an opportunity to do what we should do best.
Spencer 1:01:09
Autism and a lot of special needs can be really isolating for families, for friends of mine that have that, just like John talked about at the dentist office, that it's a heartbreaking moment to think about having your child go to the dentist in a public setting and you can't properly educate them about what this is going to feel like, that there could be pain, but it doesn't mean that you're going to die. It doesn't mean that you're being tortured and to sit there as a parent, not only have the anxiety of that experience, but you get that everywhere. You get that when you want to go out and have a dinner out, when you want to go and shop, when you want to go and do the basic things that we take for granted. Yeah. How powerful would it be if our churches were able to come and say, Hey, one in two churches in Tennessee has the ability to help and accommodate. I think that would help break a pattern of isolation in Tennessee where people say, I can't go out without being emotionally and physically exhausted by the time I'm done with it. So I'm only going to go out if it's essential and mission critical.
Annalee Cate 1:02:30
And that, you know, cultivating that, that engaged society, too, is a part of how we move forward. And you know, the part that was tearing at my heart on that too, is like being in toddler stage right now with a little one, I know that that frustration when they're trying to learn to communicate like that's when you see those emotional kind of it's those the hardest days that I've had as a parent are in that Learning to communicate stage and so the tantrums, and so it's like, you know, having to face that reality and knowing that without support, we may never evolve out of that. Yeah. I mean, if you don't have systems and solutions and infrastructure that wraps around you to help support you to get through that, you know, just meant the mental drain and the weight of having to carry that is it just is unbearable to think about. And so I think there's a lot of opportunities still, and things that we can be doing better that we're not doing.
Spencer 1:03:34
I sure hope this gives John and triad a platform of recognition for the great work that they're doing in the community and will help provide hope and provide counseling and just a feeling that progress is being made, because I felt great after this interview with John that while there's still a lot more to go, there are long ways from where they were, even 10 years ago, certainly 30 years ago, when he was getting started as a camp counselor.
